Re: Ported Dart 215 pro1 platinum with port energy discussion 2.0

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

Moderator: Team

Locked
GARY C
HotPass
HotPass
Posts: 6301
Joined: Tue May 14, 2013 10:58 pm
Location:

Re: Ported Dart 215 pro1 platinum with port energy discussion 2.0

Post by GARY C »

randy331 wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:01 pm
zums wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:17 pm Who gives a shit, your data is only as good as your notes with Your bench,
Exactly.

The only reason to try and defend the calibration of your bench, is if your selling cfm.

I could care less if my flowz are believed or not.

One guy I did a set of heads for asked what they flow. I said more than they did. LOL

Maybe I should start handing out flowz sheets with that on there ??? LOL

Randy
You may want to tell that to your brother...He is the only one on this thread concerned about calibrating a bench to the fraction of a CFM.
Please Note!
THE ABOVE POST IN NO WAY REFLECTS THE VIEWS OF SPEED TALK OR IT'S MEMBERS AND SHOULD BE VIEWED AS ENTERTAINMENT ONLY...Thanks, The Management!
randy331
Guru
Guru
Posts: 3337
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 7:30 pm
Location: N.W. MO.

Re: Ported Dart 215 pro1 platinum with port energy discussion 2.0

Post by randy331 »

GARY C wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:48 pm
randy331 wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:01 pm
zums wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:17 pm Who gives a shit, your data is only as good as your notes with Your bench,
Exactly.

The only reason to try and defend the calibration of your bench, is if your selling cfm.

I could care less if my flowz are believed or not.

One guy I did a set of heads for asked what they flow. I said more than they did. LOL

Maybe I should start handing out flowz sheets with that on there ??? LOL

Randy
You may want to tell that to your brother...He is the only one on this thread concerned about calibrating a bench to the fraction of a CFM.
LOL ok Gary.

I think Rick is well aware of the difficulies in the measurement of air flow.

I don't think he is trying to prove his is calibrated to the fraction of a cfm, but to point out, just becasue you used a a "certified calibration plate on your bench", it don't mean shit.

Randy
GARY C
HotPass
HotPass
Posts: 6301
Joined: Tue May 14, 2013 10:58 pm
Location:

Re: Ported Dart 215 pro1 platinum with port energy discussion 2.0

Post by GARY C »

randy331 wrote: Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:17 am
GARY C wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:48 pm
randy331 wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:01 pm

Exactly.

The only reason to try and defend the calibration of your bench, is if your selling cfm.

I could care less if my flowz are believed or not.

One guy I did a set of heads for asked what they flow. I said more than they did. LOL

Maybe I should start handing out flowz sheets with that on there ??? LOL

Randy
You may want to tell that to your brother...He is the only one on this thread concerned about calibrating a bench to the fraction of a CFM.
LOL ok Gary.

I think Rick is well aware of the difficulies in the measurement of air flow.

I don't think he is trying to prove his is calibrated to the fraction of a cfm, but to point out, just becasue you used a a "certified calibration plate on your bench", it don't mean shit.

Randy
Everyone else has shared their methods beyond the calibration plate, would you care to share yours?
Please Note!
THE ABOVE POST IN NO WAY REFLECTS THE VIEWS OF SPEED TALK OR IT'S MEMBERS AND SHOULD BE VIEWED AS ENTERTAINMENT ONLY...Thanks, The Management!
user-9274568

Re: Ported Dart 215 pro1 platinum with port energy discussion 2.0

Post by user-9274568 »

randy331 wrote: Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:17 am
GARY C wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:48 pm
randy331 wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:01 pm

Exactly.

The only reason to try and defend the calibration of your bench, is if your selling cfm.

I could care less if my flowz are believed or not.

One guy I did a set of heads for asked what they flow. I said more than they did. LOL

Maybe I should start handing out flowz sheets with that on there ??? LOL

Randy
You may want to tell that to your brother...He is the only one on this thread concerned about calibrating a bench to the fraction of a CFM.
LOL ok Gary.

I think Rick is well aware of the difficulies in the measurement of air flow.

I don't think he is trying to prove his is calibrated to the fraction of a cfm, but to point out, just becasue you used a a "certified calibration plate on your bench", it don't mean shit.

Randy
Listen Randy. I've spent countless hours going over this bench because it's my job, it's what I do for a living. For you or your brother to say it's wrong, or it doesn't mean shit, it about as ridiculous as it gets. We were called wrong and just following the herd. That is ridiculous. It's ALWAYS a cumbersome conversation with either of you two. If either of you two would spend more time digesting rather than proving things wrong, you would both be better at what you do. FACT
Erland Cox
Guru
Guru
Posts: 4135
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 9:46 pm
Location: Lund in Sweden
Contact:

Re: Ported Dart 215 pro1 platinum with port energy discussion 2.0

Post by Erland Cox »

Lets continue to learn from each other and try to respect that all have different wievs.
I have learned a lot here on Speedtalk and I know of no other place where som many really skilled people share their knowledge.
I might not agree with all and others may not agree with me.
But if all where thinking the same there wouldn´t be much of a discussion.
I learn a lot from being questioned, that makes me think over my beliefs and sometimes I see that I was wrong and then I learn something new.


Erland
steve316
Expert
Expert
Posts: 630
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2007 10:06 pm
Location: St.Joseph,mo.

Re: Ported Dart 215 pro1 platinum with port energy discussion 2.0

Post by steve316 »

Chad I think you need to lighten up; what if it were said monkey see monkey do. Would you have been more upset than following the herd.It's not a one way street; if you are going to pass out criticism you need to be able to take it. So laugh about it and have a good time. :D
groberts101
Guru
Guru
Posts: 1980
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2008 3:08 pm
Location: Minneapolis

Re: Ported Dart 215 pro1 platinum with port energy discussion 2.0

Post by groberts101 »

statsystems wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:27 pm I've said it before but it's probably worth repeating when it comes to port finish.

If I could achieve burr finish results like Larry, Chad and what Charlie are getting I'd damn sure try it more. I can't duplicate that. Not even close. So I do what I do that gets the results I want.

IMO, it takes a damn lot of practice and experience to get the finish the way these guys do.
Controlling the consistency due to the varying degrees of tool/bit angles needed during port access is the hardest part, IMO. That and it's sometimes tough to not jack up or nick those fancy guides you spent so much time streamlining.

I can't say how others came about developing their chatter finishes but I can tell you that mine was out of pure necessity of needing to finish the job at hand. When you start out porting stuff with hella fast electric die grinders and use a lot of long shank burrs and your favorite ones get bent?.. what do you do? Well.. first off you immediately go to an adrenaline rushed death gripped straight arm position and try not to trip stepping back far enough to yank the plug! LOL Before the internet.. you tended to just pound your junk straight as possible with a hammer and keep on grinding. Of course they're never even close to straight for the speeds involved with an electric non-speed controlled grinder(they vibrate and flutter a little even when new!) and you learn to wrap rags around the shank to keep it from happening again immediately after the switch is hit. Then you're forced to spend more time to fluff your new "jumping jack burrs" finish out with a shit ton of tootsie rolls or whatever's left in your tool/supply boxes. Then another day you're tight on time, low on consumables, or just plain think.. "what the hell?.. maybe it'll help break up the fuel better?".. and you just decide to run it straight off the bit.

From there you have to wonder why the motor cleaned up, might be.. maybe could be.. possibly making a little more power?, and accepts a tighter tune than before. "Hmmm?.. maybe I'll do it again and run it on the bench before calling them done next time". It's all hard earned trial and error if you don't have the money and resources to start from a better baseline like many around here do these days. I cut my teeth on mostly cheaper OEM iron junk that was severely CSA limited and did whatever I could to squeak out that last bit of power. And I still have that same mentality even now that newer far superior OEM and aftermarket castings and available CSA is much less limiting. Most production shops don't have the luxury of time like a small part-timer home shop does. If I only make 9 bucks an hour I can still eat and pay the mortgage. If something doesn't completely fit the application.. many/most shops will generally just tell the customer to order another casting that does. Or run a cnc program through it and call it close enough to perfect for that particular application.

Not saying or implying these guys don't care about doing that last little bit towards the Nth degree because they've obviously worked hard to develop their designs and have backed them up with solid repeatable results. Only pointing out the obvious that many/most customers are just too damned cheap or simply don't care about 2 horsepower here and another 1 over there. Diminishing returns for the $$$ spent, juice ain't worth the squeeze, and all that.

My best advice to you(Stat).. or anyone else trying to achieve a more aggressive burr finish is to order some junk ebay bits and tag them with a chissel to make them hop. Can use anything from an alumina bit to a single or double cut. The first two will be very aggressive and much tougher to near impossible to control the chatters "grain flow" characteristics with the latter being the most consistent but with less aggressive peaks and valleys overall.
user-9274568

Re: Ported Dart 215 pro1 platinum with port energy discussion 2.0

Post by user-9274568 »

Sorry guys, maybe I was a little over the top for defending what I do for a living..

Still a cumbersome conversation with them, period.

Time to walk away..

MOOO MOOO
groberts101
Guru
Guru
Posts: 1980
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2008 3:08 pm
Location: Minneapolis

Re: Ported Dart 215 pro1 platinum with port energy discussion 2.0

Post by groberts101 »

cspeier wrote: Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:21 am Sorry guys, maybe I was a little over the top for defending what I do for a living..

Still a cumbersome conversation with them, period.

MOOO MOOO
No biggie. Just turns our nugget hunting into a fools gold hunt, is all. Then takes more pages to learn something new or maybe disprove what one thought they already knew! :lol:
GARY C
HotPass
HotPass
Posts: 6301
Joined: Tue May 14, 2013 10:58 pm
Location:

Re: Ported Dart 215 pro1 platinum with port energy discussion 2.0

Post by GARY C »

cspeier wrote: Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:13 am
randy331 wrote: Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:17 am
GARY C wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:48 pm
You may want to tell that to your brother...He is the only one on this thread concerned about calibrating a bench to the fraction of a CFM.
LOL ok Gary.

I think Rick is well aware of the difficulies in the measurement of air flow.

I don't think he is trying to prove his is calibrated to the fraction of a cfm, but to point out, just becasue you used a a "certified calibration plate on your bench", it don't mean shit.

Randy
Listen Randy. I've spent countless hours going over this bench because it's my job, it's what I do for a living. For you or your brother to say it's wrong, or it doesn't mean shit, it about as ridiculous as it gets. We were called wrong and just following the herd. That is ridiculous. It's ALWAYS a cumbersome conversation with either of you two. If either of you two would spend more time digesting rather than proving things wrong, you would both be better at what you do. FACT
Thats my issue as well and maybe I am wrong but Rick could have said here is a better way to calibrate a bench and shared that info, if he didn't want to share then that is fine as well but then why even bring it except to show how much better he is then everyone else.

When I first started porting my own heads I always payed someone more experience to check my work so I could learn what I was doing wrong and to make sure I was getting accurate readings off of my bench, if they charged anything it was $50.00 for their time and in one case I even had a very experienced porter port a port for me so that I had something to go off of and he charged nothing and even covered shipping to me.
Please Note!
THE ABOVE POST IN NO WAY REFLECTS THE VIEWS OF SPEED TALK OR IT'S MEMBERS AND SHOULD BE VIEWED AS ENTERTAINMENT ONLY...Thanks, The Management!
steve316
Expert
Expert
Posts: 630
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2007 10:06 pm
Location: St.Joseph,mo.

Re: Ported Dart 215 pro1 platinum with port energy discussion 2.0

Post by steve316 »

If it is not some sales pitch them why does it have to be calibrated to the max; as long as your making gains on your bench isn't that what counts?
user-9274568

Re: Ported Dart 215 pro1 platinum with port energy discussion 2.0

Post by user-9274568 »

steve316 wrote: Fri Mar 23, 2018 1:07 pm If it is not some sales pitch them why does it have to be calibrated to the max; as long as your making gains on your bench isn't that what counts?
Because the cylinder head and all the 'important" data needed to choose a cylinder head is dependent on flow. Average cross section, average air speed, localized air speed. etc. You are either "accurate" or your not!

If your selling numbers, yes I can believe no other thought goes into your bench.
Warp Speed
Guru
Guru
Posts: 3264
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2008 1:46 pm
Location: NC

Re: Ported Dart 215 pro1 platinum with port energy discussion 2.0

Post by Warp Speed »

Remember what I said a few pages ago about cylinder head guys?!? :D

I rest my case! Hahaha
GARY C
HotPass
HotPass
Posts: 6301
Joined: Tue May 14, 2013 10:58 pm
Location:

Re: Ported Dart 215 pro1 platinum with port energy discussion 2.0

Post by GARY C »

steve316 wrote: Fri Mar 23, 2018 1:07 pm If it is not some sales pitch them why does it have to be calibrated to the max; as long as your making gains on your bench isn't that what counts?
For me I wanted to know that my data was comparable to industry standard if I did work for someone else. On my own stuff I just wanted to make sure I was doing repeatable test.

If your not calibrated you can get mislead by thinking you have achieved flow #'s that no one else has ever done and you end up chasing something that doesn't exist. Even a bad valve opening device can make you think you have better or worse flow #'s when actually your lift # is wrong.

I start flowing at .025 .050 .075 .100 ... because the valve diameter and seat sets the flow number so I know everything is correct and I haven't missed something and I don't have any leaks, I ask for the same thing when I have another shop test my work so I can feel more comfortable with their bench calibration.
Please Note!
THE ABOVE POST IN NO WAY REFLECTS THE VIEWS OF SPEED TALK OR IT'S MEMBERS AND SHOULD BE VIEWED AS ENTERTAINMENT ONLY...Thanks, The Management!
Rick360
Guru
Guru
Posts: 1104
Joined: Sun Oct 03, 2004 9:55 pm
Location: Missouri

Re: Ported Dart 215 pro1 platinum with port energy discussion 2.0

Post by Rick360 »

Gary,
What type bench do you have?

Rick
Locked