Fuel Recommendation

[David Redszus]

You can always tell the guys that copy and paste long articles that are supposed to perplex you from the guys that actually test or run it through the gears on the street, "pump gas is horrible" really, not if you get it from a reputable company that is consistent and dosert mind putting you in touch with the tech info needed,

First of all, I write those long articles that I post; they are not copied from any other source.

Second, pump gas is horrible for racing because it was not designed for the purpose. It's composition and properties change by month and location. There is no such thing as "pump gas"; there are many, many pump gases even bought from the same "reputable" station.

Third, I perform fuel test lab analysis for SCCA, APBA, and SAE and have trained fuel tech inspectors. We once lab tested pump gas for a sanctioning body from the same Shell station, one week apart. The first lab test showed 540 different components in the fuel; the second test showed 484 different fuel components. Consistency? What is that?

Fourth, you will never get to speak the the chemist who actually designs the fuel blends at the oil company. If you ever did,
he (or she) would tell you that base stock components coming from various crude sources are all different and that blends must be adjusted on the fly resulting in a wide variety of fuel products. This is only possible with advanced blending software programs.

Fifth, in my former life it was my job to design and blend specialty race fuels for all sorts of engines and applications including emissions testing of race fuels. The real trick was to match (or build) a fuel blend to the needs of a specific engine.

Sixth, there are many variations of racing fuel; each blended for a specific purpose. VP Racing fuels lists 53 different blends in their Master Fuel Blend Table. If they were only as smart as you, they would simply mix pump gas with a little AvGas and win a race against low level amateurs.

Those who talk, don't know.
Those who know, don't talk.

[GARY C]

You can always tell the guys that copy and paste long articles that are supposed to perplex you from the guys that actually test or run it through the gears on the street, "pump gas is horrible" really, not if you get it from a reputable company that is consistent and dosert mind putting you in touch with the tech info needed,

First of all, I write those long articles that I post; they are not copied from any other source.

Second, pump gas is horrible for racing because it was not designed for the purpose. It's composition and properties change by month and location. There is no such thing as "pump gas"; there are many, many pump gases even bought from the same "reputable" station.

Third, I perform fuel test lab analysis for SCCA, APBA, and SAE and have trained fuel tech inspectors. We once lab tested pump gas for a sanctioning body from the same Shell station, one week apart. The first lab test showed 540 different components in the fuel; the second test showed 484 different fuel components. Consistency? What is that?

Fourth, you will never get to speak the the chemist who actually designs the fuel blends at the oil company. If you ever did,
he (or she) would tell you that base stock components coming from various crude sources are all different and that blends must be adjusted on the fly resulting in a wide variety of fuel products. This is only possible with advanced blending software programs.

Fifth, in my former life it was my job to design and blend specialty race fuels for all sorts of engines and applications including emissions testing of race fuels. The real trick was to match (or build) a fuel blend to the needs of a specific engine.

Sixth, there are many variations of racing fuel; each blended for a specific purpose. VP Racing fuels lists 53 different blends in their Master Fuel Blend Table. If they were only as smart as you, they would simply mix pump gas with a little AvGas and win a race against low level amateurs.

Those who talk, don't know.
Those who know, don't talk.

Is this why something like VP Vintage unleaded is so much more expensive, consistency and quality?

[KnightEngines]

I guess we're lucky over here, our BP 'ultimate' 98 is pretty good as long as you buy it from a big turnover servo.
It's about equivalent to US 92/93 octane.

I've run 12:1 iron head street/strip engines on it, for racing a dash of nulone pro strength octane boost or a tank of Avgas does the job (oh no, not Avgas, can't use that in a car engine - the sky will fall & all the magic pixies holding the engine together will pack their shit & leave).

[groberts101]

I guess we're lucky over here, our BP 'ultimate' 98 is pretty good as long as you buy it from a big turnover servo.
It's about equivalent to US 92/93 octane.

I've run 12:1 iron head street/strip engines on it, for racing a dash of nulone pro strength octane boost or a tank of Avgas does the job (oh no, not Avgas, can't use that in a car engine - the sky will fall & all the magic pixies holding the engine together will pack their shit & leave).

I find it haha funny how these threads make all this kinda stuff seem impossible or look downright terrible on paper.. yet we've been doing it successfully for about the last 50 years? I still remember waiting in line at my local airport(lots of wheelie bar'd extended swing arm race bikes back then too) just to fuel up before all the "late night racing events"!

[cjperformance]

I guess we're lucky over here, our BP 'ultimate' 98 is pretty good as long as you buy it from a big turnover servo.
It's about equivalent to US 92/93 octane.

I've run 12:1 iron head street/strip engines on it, for racing a dash of nulone pro strength octane boost or a tank of Avgas does the job (oh no, not Avgas, can't use that in a car engine - the sky will fall & all the magic pixies holding the engine together will pack their shit & leave).

Tony classic , wtf did you put in the vape thismorning , thats gold !

[cjperformance]

I guess we're lucky over here, our BP 'ultimate' 98 is pretty good as long as you buy it from a big turnover servo.
It's about equivalent to US 92/93 octane.

I've run 12:1 iron head street/strip engines on it, for racing a dash of nulone pro strength octane boost or a tank of Avgas does the job (oh no, not Avgas, can't use that in a car engine - the sky will fall & all the magic pixies holding the engine together will pack their shit & leave).

I find it haha funny how these threads make all this kinda stuff seem impossible or look downright terrible on paper.. yet we've been doing it successfully for about the last 50 years? I still remember waiting in line at my local airport(lots of wheelie bar'd extended swing arm race bikes back then too) just to fuel up before all the "late night racing events"!

Getting harder to buy here, but the airfield will sell it for use "in my private plane over my private property" no problem

[David Redszus]

Funny thing about AvGas...aircraft engines run on it without catastrophic failure.

Race engines can run on many different race fuels. The real question is which fuels are best for a specific engine?

[KnightEngines]

The 'best' fuel for a specific engine & purpose is not always the one that makes the most power with the best safety margin.
Availability, cost, maintenance etc all come in to it.

Avgas fits the bill for quite a few purposes despite not being an 'ideal' race fuel.

Craig - Vanilla custard, tasty!

[steve cowan]

I guess we're lucky over here, our BP 'ultimate' 98 is pretty good as long as you buy it from a big turnover servo.
It's about equivalent to US 92/93 octane.

I've run 12:1 iron head street/strip engines on it, for racing a dash of nulone pro strength octane boost or a tank of Avgas does the job (oh no, not Avgas, can't use that in a car engine - the sky will fall & all the magic pixies holding the engine together will pack their shit & leave).

Tony classic , wtf did you put in the vape thismorning , thats gold !
[/quote

Tony,
What is your thoughts on the octane booster deal, I have used it before and mixed as per instructions but I can't read a plug at the track because of the colour, how do you find it on the dyno, have you done any testing???

Steve C

[KnightEngines]

Steve - the nulon pro strength works, but just use 1/2 a bottle in a tank coz it messes up the spark plugs a little at full strength.
It won't save a motor that's in to heavy det on the fuel it's running, but it will get rid of light det & give a little safety margin on borderline stuff.

[Truckedup]

The 'best' fuel for a specific engine & purpose is not always the one that makes the most power with the best safety margin.
Availability, cost, maintenance etc all come in to it.

Avgas fits the bill for quite a few purposes despite not being an 'ideal' race fuel.

Craig - Vanilla custard, tasty!

The air cooled vintage bike junk record holders I run in land speed racing makes the best power and speed on the lean side just shy of detonation...I use VP C12 because of the fuel consistency, 108 MON octane and 90C evaporation rate....A competitor who runs a similar set up was seeing signs of detonation on C12...He chose a different VP grade with the same octane but a lower 90C evaporation rate..Detonation was no longer a problem..
The VP is 80 bucks for 5 gallons, I consider it cheap engine insurance as a seizure on a bike engine can lock the rear tire and the rider is thrown from the machine...

[cjperformance]

Vanilla custard, nice!

I think all up there is no arguement that there is more consistency in specialised race fuel, but avgas is definetly not the evil fuel some paint it to be. Possibly the avgas we get in Australia is a little more consistent than what is available in USA? As Tony said- our good pump fuel here is certainly very predictable.

[B Original]

Here is another of the problems I see with Avgas and 91 / 93 octane pump Fuel is the time from the refinery to the time it's used if it's in a vented tank or storage can for any amount of time the front end start to evaporate off

For instance let's say your local fuel station gets filled up with 87 octane and 91 octane at the same time 3 days later they need to come and refill the 87 octane storage tank but they've only sold 10% of the 91 octane so this 91 octane can end up staying in the ground a much longer period of time so if that 91 octane has been in the ground for 3 weeks you may come and test it it might only be 88 or 89 octane? Maybe more maybe less? I think the same with Avgas at some of your smaller airports that don't go through a huge volume of fuel weekly or the drum you took home with you that you got 55 gallons and you're still using it 5 weeks later or even longer

The same can happen with race gas too that's why I just buy it at the racetrack from a fresh drum the volume I go through it don't pay me to buy it and stored at home.

One of the things that I purposely try to do if I'm building one for Pump Fuel I build it for 87 octane if I building it for anymore I just go ahead and plan on a racing fuel to suit the purpose. It's just not worth it the build one for 93 octane didn't have but a real 90 octane in the fuel tank and burn a piston because you're out cruising on a 95 degree day and your engine temperature creeps up to 200 degrees and you got your fuel system tuned 4 160 or 170 degrees coolant temperature

[GARY C]

Here is another of the problems I see with Avgas and 91 / 93 octane pump Fuel is the time from the refinery to the time it's used if it's in a vented tank or storage can for any. Of time the front end start to evaporate off

For instance let's say your local fuel station gets filled up with 87 octane and 91 octane at the same time 3 days later they need to come and refill the 87 octane storage tank but they've only sold 10% of the 91 octane so this 91 octane can end up staying in the ground a much longer period of time so if that 91 octane has been in the ground for 3 weeks you may come and test it it might only be 88 or 89 octane? Maybe more maybe less? I think the same with Avgas at some of your smaller airports that don't go through a huge volume of fuel weekly or the drum you took home with you that you got 55 gallons and you're still using it 5 weeks later or even longer

The same can happen with race gas too that's why I just buy it at the racetrack from a fresh drum the volume I go through it don't pay me to buy it and stored at home.

One of the things that I purposely try to do if I'm building one for Pump Fuel I build it for 87 octane if I building it for anymore I just go ahead and plan on a racing fuel to suit the purpose. It's just not worth it the build one for 93 octane didn't have but a real 90 octane in the fuel tank and burn a piston because you're out cruising on a 95 degree day and your engine temperature creeps up to 200 degrees and you got your fuel system tuned 4 160 or 170 degrees coolant temperature

That would depend on what you pay vs what you use and how the fuel is handled at the track, you will usually pay $1.00 more per gallon at the track than if you buy a drum depending on supplier, with your own drum you have control of temp and if it's sealed or not.

Having supplied many shops and tracks with fuel I would be very reluctant to trust any of them, most do not take the pump out when they close up at night or for the week so it's never sealed and if they do they usually put the lid on finger tight, some even cut the fuel with pump gas or cross blend in a lower octane race gas of the same color because they know most racer buy a higher octane than they actually need.

[B Original]

That's right about a dollar more per gallon but if you use 5 gallons that's $5 difference versus every time you open your seal drum you release some of the vapors that was trapped in the drum you let it set a week you got more overhead in the drum you unseal a drum you lose more Vapors it just depends on the volume you use if you use a like I do it's not worth it.

Each of us have their own methods what works for one person does not work for the other. But it is good that we got a form like this or we can learn how about some of these things that is not necessarily, knowledge to some is there some things that I have Clarity on that I was a little fuzzy about before