Pro Stock Pontica Heads #427 for BBC Valve Train System

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

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star393
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Post by star393 » Wed Nov 19, 2008 8:38 am

hey af2 not to change the subject but you should look into selling and installing LED lighting its the new future and wide open market.
Like going 10,000 Rpms :lol: :wink: :wink:

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Pro stock heads

Post by star393 » Wed Nov 19, 2008 9:19 pm

Hopefully we can get back to the post of these heads, from what ive seen and talked with others running valve lengths in these heads the adverage exhaust valve length is 6.450 and intake was 6.500 or 6.550 but what was the spring installed height??? 2.125 or taller????? anybody have any idea??
Douglas

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Post by mmmitch588 » Thu Nov 20, 2008 6:36 am

Star393, seems you like to sh#t stir and fu*k around a lot & don't know if your serious but fact is with a 6.380 ex & 6.590 int . +.100" retainer installed height was 2.100" as just finished a set..
4.350 bore, 3.760 stroke 288°, 306° @ .050, 115° l/s, 855" , .875" lift , tunnel ram , 2 X 1050 cfm =12,300 RPM , 6.73 @ 197.46 MPH in 2980 LBS car.
:roll: :-k

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Post by star393 » Thu Nov 20, 2008 8:20 am

[quote="mmmitch588"]Star393, seems you like to sh#t stir and fu*k around a lot & don't know if your serious but fact is with a 6.380 ex & 6.590 int . +.100" retainer installed height was 2.100" as just finished a set..
4.350 bore, 3.760 stroke 288°, 306° @ .050, 115° l/s, 855" , .875" lift , tunnel ram , 2 X 1050 cfm =12,300 RPM , 6.73 @ 197.46 MPH in 2980 LBS car.
:roll: :-k[/quote]

Thanks 588
No i dont like screwing around but when people dish it out i dont lay down flying space ships or drugs comments as long as they can take what they dish out, Thanks again for set up tips. Ive been looking for longer valves to get installed height to 2.250 and have some room.

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Post by mmmitch588 » Thu Nov 20, 2008 9:02 am

Are you planning on running a 1.00" lift cam?

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Post by star393 » Thu Nov 20, 2008 11:56 am

[quote="mmmitch588"]Are you planning on running a 1.00" lift cam?[/quote]

No but i partice a diff. set of standards from everyone else i keep my springs min. .150 to .225 from coil bind at max lift, and i like using longer valves to do that. IT plays hell on the valve train geo if your still using rocker studs ,but my springs last along time that way. iam aound 380 seat and 960 open at lift with a .820 lift roller.


douglas

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Post by star393 » Thu Nov 20, 2008 1:26 pm

[quote="star393"][quote="mmmitch588"]Star393, seems you like to sh#t stir and fu*k around a lot & don't know if your serious but fact is with a 6.380 ex & 6.590 int . +.100" retainer installed height was 2.100" as just finished a set..
4.350 bore, 3.760 stroke 288°, 306° @ .050, 115° l/s, 855" , .875" lift , tunnel ram , 2 X 1050 cfm =12,300 RPM , 6.73 @ 197.46 MPH in 2980 LBS car.
:roll: :-k[/quote]

Thanks 588
No i dont like screwing around but when people dish it out i dont lay down flying space ships or drugs comments as long as they can take what they dish out, Thanks again for set up tips. Ive been looking for longer valves to get installed height to 2.250 and have some room.[/quote]

Is that 2.100 set up have a spring seat cup under it or just shims??

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Post by star393 » Thu Nov 20, 2008 1:30 pm

quote="star393"][quote="mmmitch588"]Star393, seems you like to sh#t stir and fu*k around a lot & don't know if your serious but fact is with a 6.380 ex & 6.590 int . +.100" retainer installed height was 2.100" as just finished a set..
4.350 bore, 3.760 stroke 288°, 306° @ .050, 115° l/s, 855" , .875" lift , tunnel ram , 2 X 1050 cfm =12,300 RPM , 6.73 @ 197.46 MPH in 2980 LBS car.
:roll: :-k[/quote]

Now thats a nice ride down the track. congrads Mitch

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Post by Warp Speed » Thu Nov 20, 2008 1:36 pm

star393 wrote: No but i partice a diff. set of standards from everyone else i keep my springs min. .150 to .225 from coil bind at max lift, and i like using longer valves to do that. IT plays hell on the valve train geo if your still using rocker studs ,but my springs last along time that way. iam aound 380 seat and 960 open at lift with a .820 lift roller.


douglas
.150-.225 from coild bind are going to help your springs live longer??

Please explain the theory behind this.

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Post by new engine builder » Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:21 pm

Warp Speed wrote:
star393 wrote: No but i partice a diff. set of standards from everyone else i keep my springs min. .150 to .225 from coil bind at max lift, and i like using longer valves to do that. IT plays hell on the valve train geo if your still using rocker studs ,but my springs last along time that way. iam aound 380 seat and 960 open at lift with a .820 lift roller.


douglas
.150-.225 from coild bind are going to help your springs live longer??

Please explain the theory behind this.
I've really got to hear this.
:lol:

trmnatr

Post by trmnatr » Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:34 pm

Warp Speed wrote:
star393 wrote: No but i partice a diff. set of standards from everyone else i keep my springs min. .150 to .225 from coil bind at max lift, and i like using longer valves to do that. IT plays hell on the valve train geo if your still using rocker studs ,but my springs last along time that way. iam aound 380 seat and 960 open at lift with a .820 lift roller.


douglas
.150-.225 from coild bind are going to help your springs live longer??

Please explain the theory behind this.
I like to be .060"-.100" away from coil bind, The heavier the valve the further away from coil bind assuming its an aggressive lobe design, but still in the range of .060"-.100"

H-11 will live at .150" away from coil bind but thats older spring Technology, or at least the springs have lasted for me .150" away from coil bind on H-11 only

Manley NexTeks in my opinion need to be .060"-.100" away from coil bind

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Post by star393 » Fri Nov 21, 2008 12:22 am

[quote="Warp Speed"][quote="star393"] No but i partice a diff. set of standards from everyone else i keep my springs min. .150 to .225 from coil bind at max lift, and i like using longer valves to do that. IT plays hell on the valve train geo if your still using rocker studs ,but my springs last along time that way. iam aound 380 seat and 960 open at lift with a .820 lift roller.


douglas[/quote]

.150-.225 from coild bind are going to help your springs live longer??

Please explain the theory behind this.[/quote]



It works 5 # loss in three years of running.


Back to basics ok
The OEM big three have been teaching us for years if you want a spring to live pass warrranty follow these instructions and also if any of ya have anything to do with building progressive dies or tool room ventures in compound dies or for that matter spring basics by Danley or other major spring manufactures a spring should be design in its mechcanial function to not use more then 20 to 25 % of its rating for any kind of reliablity. So with this in mind ie: bbc oem installed height of appox. 1.900 and a appox. .425 lift cam would put this understanding at about 23% and we get about 90,000 miles give or take. Depending on wire dia. and type of material used to manufacture the wire we have some kind of coil bind figure what mayebe 1.050 or whatever right.
Without changing the installed height and putting in bigger cams (lobe lift) the spring gets compressed past its 25% usage and sooner then later snap. You then cut the life of the spring by 75%. So to help the cause more and get some more life cycle back you make the wire size bigger or get some better wire material or do some fancy heat treating or polishing or stress relieving or grinding to remove stress areas or all of the above and the spring will live longer. The best thing that you can do is go back to the start and not compress the spring past the 25% figure and not kill the spring in the first place. So with very little room left from a oem installed height,, tools like + .050 keepers and +.100 retainers and +.100 +.250 taller valves were we are able to squeeze in a beefer spring Dia. or excotic designs to aid in getting some of that life cycle back. but we still manage to be within .060 of coil bind, the accepted min. distance from total stack soild distance. still a long ways off from the 25% margin of warranty saftey. thats racing there is no warranty. This coil bind distance is so you dont turn your valve train into one solid steel mass and do instant damage like Hydraulic lock. something will go boom at the turn of the key it has nothing to do with the life of the spring (well it does but thats racing) because your already taken a chance going past 50% your lucky springs dont break just sitting there installed. With the help of everyone else misfortunes change springs every what 20 30 40 50 100 runs, all this depends on what your compressing the spring from and to. So why not just give yourself all the room you can get and not kill the spring in the first place. Go up get taller give the spring some room,but then theres a limit to that also.

Second factor about springs is HOW they react to compression in our case which brings about a whole new realm of problems espically to high speed operation. Everyone is still learning this one encluding the spring manufactures. Spring design based on high speed requirments along with the major factors, cam lobe height and accel. and decel ramps now play a major role in spring requirments and spring weight. Its slinky time. Call it mass and Harmonics and Sub Harmonics thrown into the basket of problems for high speed operation. So theres a trade off for what you want like anything else in life to get alittle you give alittle. Back to the basics you add a damper (the flat wound insert) used to control the springs reaction to cycle speed it helps to a point keeping the spring from becoming a slinky and under control at higher speeds then you go to the next step and split the springs rate into two seperate springs combined and wind the inner spring in a opposite manner forcing it to rub against the outer spring keeping it under control and yet add the flat damper also and getting even more control (Hence a misconception often called a triple spring). Then theres the design of three springs to gain even more control but all designs can be made with diff. wire diameter to gain brute force to gain the biggest control. Maybe something we dont like because it robs horse Power to compress them. So everybody has diff. requirments with there valve train based on what you are using it for. Not everyone is a happy camper on this subject. This subject can go on and on forever people will always empty cases of beer over this one at a camp fire, but it will all end up on what you are doing with the spring and what you are controlling. There is progressive wound springs non-progressive wound springs barrel wound springs all aids in controlling the slinky effect, a typical term used by many.
I have found in my appl. that by increasing the installed height by .500 in length and keeping far away from coil bind (typical term used) or a tiny bit closer to the 25% rule and using alot of seat pressure to help control the spring the springs that i use dont break(knock on wood) and i can get alot of life from them just by giving them some room to work without killing them. How far can you go dont know at what rpm will they fail, works by me and not many people go there so your safe. so iam around .180 to .225 from coil bind and still have control over the slinky effect. Then why dont spring people in the high performance world tell ya this i dont know or maybe its THEY ARE IN THE BUSINESS OF SELLING SPRINGS why that must be the ansewer.
The problems with going taller on a stud rocker arm is the angles of the valve and angle of the stud the higher up you go the closer the two get (ie:BBC) causing a bad GEO problem, either shorten the nose length of the rocker arm or install shaft stands type rocker system by getting rid of the stud boss, or changing the angle of the stud boss to correct. The rocker arm body at 960 pounds of spring force will be ok but the trunnion will break were the stud goes thur the hole so taking them apart and hand grinding them or breaking all the sharp edges with a radius increases their life span. My pro stock heads will give me the advantage of tayloring my valve train to fit my needs as my iron 990 heads are at the extream limits of valve train systems. So iam running 385 on the seat and 960 open at .820 via a Ramic spring tester. Certified i give alittle hp to get alot at the higher rpm levels were i like to be.

Ps if you want to be an english teacher go teach school please dont #### with my grammer and try to belittle me. I dont care you can read it.
Douglas

pss Top fuel people that i know were extremt spring pressures are used at the end of race day the rockers are released of pressure putting everything at seat installed height were as keeping the load off the roller lifters and springs not a bad practice to follow, oh i use their springs also and have Titanium ones to boot. I also use so called roller lifter springs on my brothers olds flat tappet cam but installed high and at 180 seat 550 open at lift and rpm that bitch to 8800 350 OSB he,s in uncharted waters also./

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Post by Warp Speed » Fri Nov 21, 2008 8:07 am

star393 wrote:

It works 5 # loss in three years of running.


Back to basics ok
The OEM big three have been teaching us for years if you want a spring to live pass warrranty follow these instructions and also if any of ya have anything to do with building progressive dies or tool room ventures in compound dies or for that matter spring basics by Danley or other major spring manufactures a spring should be design in its mechcanial function to not use more then 20 to 25 % of its rating for any kind of reliablity. So with this in mind ie: bbc oem installed height of appox. 1.900 and a appox. .425 lift cam would put this understanding at about 23% and we get about 90,000 miles give or take. Depending on wire dia. and type of material used to manufacture the wire we have some kind of coil bind figure what mayebe 1.050 or whatever right.
Without changing the installed height and putting in bigger cams (lobe lift) the spring gets compressed past its 25% usage and sooner then later snap. You then cut the life of the spring by 75%. So to help the cause more and get some more life cycle back you make the wire size bigger or get some better wire material or do some fancy heat treating or polishing or stress relieving or grinding to remove stress areas or all of the above and the spring will live longer. The best thing that you can do is go back to the start and not compress the spring past the 25% figure and not kill the spring in the first place. So with very little room left from a oem installed height,, tools like + .050 keepers and +.100 retainers and +.100 +.250 taller valves were we are able to squeeze in a beefer spring Dia. or excotic designs to aid in getting some of that life cycle back. but we still manage to be within .060 of coil bind, the accepted min. distance from total stack soild distance. still a long ways off from the 25% margin of warranty saftey. thats racing there is no warranty. This coil bind distance is so you dont turn your valve train into one solid steel mass and do instant damage like Hydraulic lock. something will go boom at the turn of the key it has nothing to do with the life of the spring (well it does but thats racing) because your already taken a chance going past 50% your lucky springs dont break just sitting there installed. With the help of everyone else misfortunes change springs every what 20 30 40 50 100 runs, all this depends on what your compressing the spring from and to. So why not just give yourself all the room you can get and not kill the spring in the first place. Go up get taller give the spring some room,but then theres a limit to that also.

Second factor about springs is HOW they react to compression in our case which brings about a whole new realm of problems espically to high speed operation. Everyone is still learning this one encluding the spring manufactures. Spring design based on high speed requirments along with the major factors, cam lobe height and accel. and decel ramps now play a major role in spring requirments and spring weight. Its slinky time. Call it mass and Harmonics and Sub Harmonics thrown into the basket of problems for high speed operation. So theres a trade off for what you want like anything else in life to get alittle you give alittle. Back to the basics you add a damper (the flat wound insert) used to control the springs reaction to cycle speed it helps to a point keeping the spring from becoming a slinky and under control at higher speeds then you go to the next step and split the springs rate into two seperate springs combined and wind the inner spring in a opposite manner forcing it to rub against the outer spring keeping it under control and yet add the flat damper also and getting even more control (Hence a misconception often called a triple spring). Then theres the design of three springs to gain even more control but all designs can be made with diff. wire diameter to gain brute force to gain the biggest control. Maybe something we dont like because it robs horse Power to compress them. So everybody has diff. requirments with there valve train based on what you are using it for. Not everyone is a happy camper on this subject. This subject can go on and on forever people will always empty cases of beer over this one at a camp fire, but it will all end up on what you are doing with the spring and what you are controlling. There is progressive wound springs non-progressive wound springs barrel wound springs all aids in controlling the slinky effect, a typical term used by many.
I have found in my appl. that by increasing the installed height by .500 in length and keeping far away from coil bind (typical term used) or a tiny bit closer to the 25% rule and using alot of seat pressure to help control the spring the springs that i use dont break(knock on wood) and i can get alot of life from them just by giving them some room to work without killing them. How far can you go dont know at what rpm will they fail, works by me and not many people go there so your safe. so iam around .180 to .225 from coil bind and still have control over the slinky effect. Then why dont spring people in the high performance world tell ya this i dont know or maybe its THEY ARE IN THE BUSINESS OF SELLING SPRINGS why that must be the ansewer.
The problems with going taller on a stud rocker arm is the angles of the valve and angle of the stud the higher up you go the closer the two get (ie:BBC) causing a bad GEO problem, either shorten the nose length of the rocker arm or install shaft stands type rocker system by getting rid of the stud boss, or changing the angle of the stud boss to correct. The rocker arm body at 960 pounds of spring force will be ok but the trunnion will break were the stud goes thur the hole so taking them apart and hand grinding them or breaking all the sharp edges with a radius increases their life span. My pro stock heads will give me the advantage of tayloring my valve train to fit my needs as my iron 990 heads are at the extream limits of valve train systems. So iam running 385 on the seat and 960 open at .820 via a Ramic spring tester. Certified i give alittle hp to get alot at the higher rpm levels were i like to be.

Ps if you want to be an english teacher go teach school please dont #### with my grammer and try to belittle me. I dont care you can read it.
Douglas

pss Top fuel people that i know were extremt spring pressures are used at the end of race day the rockers are released of pressure putting everything at seat installed height were as keeping the load off the roller lifters and springs not a bad practice to follow, oh i use their springs also and have Titanium ones to boot. I also use so called roller lifter springs on my brothers olds flat tappet cam but installed high and at 180 seat 550 open at lift and rpm that bitch to 8800 350 OSB he,s in uncharted waters also./
:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

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Post by new engine builder » Fri Nov 21, 2008 8:15 am

star393 wrote:
Warp Speed wrote:
star393 wrote: No but i partice a diff. set of standards from everyone else i keep my springs min. .150 to .225 from coil bind at max lift, and i like using longer valves to do that. IT plays hell on the valve train geo if your still using rocker studs ,but my springs last along time that way. iam aound 380 seat and 960 open at lift with a .820 lift roller.


douglas
.150-.225 from coild bind are going to help your springs live longer??

Please explain the theory behind this.


It works 5 # loss in three years of running.


Back to basics ok
The OEM big three have been teaching us for years if you want a spring to live pass warrranty follow these instructions and also if any of ya have anything to do with building progressive dies or tool room ventures in compound dies or for that matter spring basics by Danley or other major spring manufactures a spring should be design in its mechcanial function to not use more then 20 to 25 % of its rating for any kind of reliablity. So with this in mind ie: bbc oem installed height of appox. 1.900 and a appox. .425 lift cam would put this understanding at about 23% and we get about 90,000 miles give or take. Depending on wire dia. and type of material used to manufacture the wire we have some kind of coil bind figure what mayebe 1.050 or whatever right.
Without changing the installed height and putting in bigger cams (lobe lift) the spring gets compressed past its 25% usage and sooner then later snap. You then cut the life of the spring by 75%. So to help the cause more and get some more life cycle back you make the wire size bigger or get some better wire material or do some fancy heat treating or polishing or stress relieving or grinding to remove stress areas or all of the above and the spring will live longer. The best thing that you can do is go back to the start and not compress the spring past the 25% figure and not kill the spring in the first place. So with very little room left from a oem installed height,, tools like + .050 keepers and +.100 retainers and +.100 +.250 taller valves were we are able to squeeze in a beefer spring Dia. or excotic designs to aid in getting some of that life cycle back. but we still manage to be within .060 of coil bind, the accepted min. distance from total stack soild distance. still a long ways off from the 25% margin of warranty saftey. thats racing there is no warranty. This coil bind distance is so you dont turn your valve train into one solid steel mass and do instant damage like Hydraulic lock. something will go boom at the turn of the key it has nothing to do with the life of the spring (well it does but thats racing) because your already taken a chance going past 50% your lucky springs dont break just sitting there installed. With the help of everyone else misfortunes change springs every what 20 30 40 50 100 runs, all this depends on what your compressing the spring from and to. So why not just give yourself all the room you can get and not kill the spring in the first place. Go up get taller give the spring some room,but then theres a limit to that also.

Second factor about springs is HOW they react to compression in our case which brings about a whole new realm of problems espically to high speed operation. Everyone is still learning this one encluding the spring manufactures. Spring design based on high speed requirments along with the major factors, cam lobe height and accel. and decel ramps now play a major role in spring requirments and spring weight. Its slinky time. Call it mass and Harmonics and Sub Harmonics thrown into the basket of problems for high speed operation. So theres a trade off for what you want like anything else in life to get alittle you give alittle. Back to the basics you add a damper (the flat wound insert) used to control the springs reaction to cycle speed it helps to a point keeping the spring from becoming a slinky and under control at higher speeds then you go to the next step and split the springs rate into two seperate springs combined and wind the inner spring in a opposite manner forcing it to rub against the outer spring keeping it under control and yet add the flat damper also and getting even more control (Hence a misconception often called a triple spring). Then theres the design of three springs to gain even more control but all designs can be made with diff. wire diameter to gain brute force to gain the biggest control. Maybe something we dont like because it robs horse Power to compress them. So everybody has diff. requirments with there valve train based on what you are using it for. Not everyone is a happy camper on this subject. This subject can go on and on forever people will always empty cases of beer over this one at a camp fire, but it will all end up on what you are doing with the spring and what you are controlling. There is progressive wound springs non-progressive wound springs barrel wound springs all aids in controlling the slinky effect, a typical term used by many.
I have found in my appl. that by increasing the installed height by .500 in length and keeping far away from coil bind (typical term used) or a tiny bit closer to the 25% rule and using alot of seat pressure to help control the spring the springs that i use dont break(knock on wood) and i can get alot of life from them just by giving them some room to work without killing them. How far can you go dont know at what rpm will they fail, works by me and not many people go there so your safe. so iam around .180 to .225 from coil bind and still have control over the slinky effect. Then why dont spring people in the high performance world tell ya this i dont know or maybe its THEY ARE IN THE BUSINESS OF SELLING SPRINGS why that must be the ansewer.
The problems with going taller on a stud rocker arm is the angles of the valve and angle of the stud the higher up you go the closer the two get (ie:BBC) causing a bad GEO problem, either shorten the nose length of the rocker arm or install shaft stands type rocker system by getting rid of the stud boss, or changing the angle of the stud boss to correct. The rocker arm body at 960 pounds of spring force will be ok but the trunnion will break were the stud goes thur the hole so taking them apart and hand grinding them or breaking all the sharp edges with a radius increases their life span. My pro stock heads will give me the advantage of tayloring my valve train to fit my needs as my iron 990 heads are at the extream limits of valve train systems. So iam running 385 on the seat and 960 open at .820 via a Ramic spring tester. Certified i give alittle hp to get alot at the higher rpm levels were i like to be.

Ps if you want to be an english teacher go teach school please dont #### with my grammer and try to belittle me. I dont care you can read it.
Douglas

pss Top fuel people that i know were extremt spring pressures are used at the end of race day the rockers are released of pressure putting everything at seat installed height were as keeping the load off the roller lifters and springs not a bad practice to follow, oh i use their springs also and have Titanium ones to boot. I also use so called roller lifter springs on my brothers olds flat tappet cam but installed high and at 180 seat 550 open at lift and rpm that bitch to 8800 350 OSB he,s in uncharted waters also./
"slinky-effect"?????? :shock:
I have never heard this term when talking about valve-train harmonics. :shock:

trmnatr

Post by trmnatr » Fri Nov 21, 2008 12:12 pm

What about a coil bind of 1.1", an installed height of 2.3" and a 1" lift cam. That will mean open is 1.3" so you have .200" clearance

Now what happens when the center coils start dancing????

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