rottler or kwikway seat & guide machine?

[cboggs]

Has anyone used the new Rottler seat & guide machine?

I guess it's the kwik way machine and rottler bought it from them?

I'm thinking of getting one, . .. ..

Curtis

[SWB]

What I would look at Curtis,

1) How fast does the spindle turn? If it's no faster than most machines you'll be stuck with the slow-as-you-go seat cutting method which works OK, but most people are finishing with a stone using this method. I know that's been discussed many times here, but I can't stress enough the benefits of going the proper cutting speed.

2) What tooling will it accept? My cutter bodies (for cutting the seat profiles) chuck into the machine and there is none of this "ball head" system in use. I don't believe the ball head is any advantage even for speed (between seats) and definitely not for quality of work. I know you only do high-end work and should really think that through. Not everyone will agree with that, but it's my personal belief.

3) It probably does everything else you need. Every machine I looked at did all the right stuff for compatibility/ease of use, etc. but didn't have a good spindle speed and/or tooling package that I liked.

Now I use a mill with an air-float table (which locks after location) and custom tooling that I made myself out of stainless steel. I made a setup to "level" the guides which are set dead true to the spindle axis and not to the table, world or anything else not coincidentally on the same plane. All this eliminates side-loading of the cutter body and poor location of the guide axes. Additionally, having the cutter bodies chuck into the spindle ensures the greatest stability available from the machine. You need good pilots, but the results are worth it when you can do a seat setup to finish cut in 8 minutes and have it dead-nuts perfect.

It also cost about half what most new machine and tooling package deals go for, but it did take a lot of work and effort on my part.

SWB

[ou812]

I use one of KwikWays models...but I would prefer to use the Sunnen. I agree with SWB that if you plan on finishing with a cutter that his way is THE only way to do it. I finish by touching the 45 seat with a stone.
Brian

[cboggs]

Now I use a mill with an air-float table (which locks after location) and custom tooling that I made myself out of stainless steel. I made a setup to "level" the guides which are set dead true to the spindle axis and not to the table, world or anything else not coincidentally on the same plane. All this eliminates side-loading of the cutter body and poor location of the guide axes. Additionally, having the cutter bodies chuck into the spindle ensures the greatest stability available from the machine. You need good pilots, but the results are worth it when you can do a seat setup to finish cut in 8 minutes and have it dead-nuts perfect.

It also cost about half what most new machine and tooling package deals go for, but it did take a lot of work and effort on my part.

SWB

That is what I'd REALLY like to do, is a mill with an airfloat table, .. ..
but haven't had much luck in finding the tooling or the airfloat roll over
table. What table do you have, .. and where did you get it????

The few airfloat / rollover fixtures I've found cost more then the damn
mill, .. some people are really "proud" of them.

I used a setup like that years ago at a shop I worked for and LOVED it, ..

but now, .. I'm looking for speed and some more of a "production"
type machine, . . . but I do remember the mill I used was just as
fast, if not faster then a Sunnen or Kwik Way, ..

That machine also had a "solid" holder, .. no ball driver, .. it was VERY
accurate, ..

We speak of my ideal machine, .. just haven't found the stuff to put it
together, .. ..

Curtis

[headman]

I would not buy a machine to cut seats without actually watching, a Newen GII ("G two") or Newen Contour; center on the guide and machine a seat.

Watch the automatic aglining of the spindle with the guide centerline, and it is easy to understand how these machines will obtain better seat concentricity.

You need to see it in person.
If you really want to cut precise seats...

[JK@D]

We use to use 6 Newen Machines here and after having nothinbg but crap come out of the and spend thousands of dollars in recalls, call tags, reshipments, and flying people here from France to fix the junk we finally put it all in a warehouse until we could find someone else to buy these things. We only use a Serdi machine, now I know alot of people talk down about these machines, but all top professional teams use these things. Chatter is often a term used when people speak of a Serdi, a quality cutter, and the correct feed will work all the time. We have custom five angle cutters made and have not had any problems at all with the Serdis. The Newen we would rebuild the braking system or locking systems almost weekly and they still moved as much a .0015 at the head, and by time you reached the seat the cutter could move over .005 and the seats would be horribly non concentric. So needless to say out with the Newens and in with the Serdis. Now we valve job about 250-300 heads daily so we have a pretty good idea of what will last and what works and Serdi is the way!!

[cboggs]

Hi JK,

Welcome to the forum, .. glad you're here.
Thanks for the "real world" view of seat machines.

New question, ..

comparing a machine like the Rottler to a mill set up with an
airfloat roll over table, .. is one much faster "floor to floor" then the other?

Curtis

[Motorman 407]

Interesting. Not long ago Darin Morgan posted on this forum that he did not like the Serdi at all and would never use one. And there was others to.
Seemed the Sunnen was the preferred machine in that thread.
Warren Johnson uses a Newen so maby not all "top professionals".

[gofaster]

I bought a new Serdi a couple years ago, no problems, great results. For flatheads, or other types of work that don't go easily into the Serdi, I like my Hall-Toledo concentric grinder.

[Mike Rogers]

Looking at the rottler sf7 or 8 i think they are the tops now in my opion.If i replace my kwik way which is the TS machine thats what i will buy.

[headman]

I "upgraded" from a Serdi to the Newen GII about seven years ago.
I was not satisfied with the serdi's ability to center with very small pilots.
I also wanted better control over the cutting parameters.
The GII could control the depth of cut; to a degree unabtainable by hand on a manual machine.
The machine could be programmed to cut counterbores, step cut down to a given depth for seat finishing, or even tap for threads much quicker and more accurately than feeding by hand.

...About five years ago I upgraded to the Newen Contour for the ability to modify the profile and not be limited to the form tool.
The most important difference is the reduction of cutting efforts that yields more accurate angles. ( With the form tool, wide cuts can deflect the tooling)





I have had excellent results with my Newen contour. Nothing in the industry compares to the surface finish one can obtain with the CBN single point cutter.




I have not experienced problems like "jk".
Most problems are usually due to poor method or lack of technique...
I've heard of people using too much cutting effort, cutting with dulled form tools, even pressure washing a precise instrument.

Sure, my machine has required simple maintenance: A hyd. hose failed at about one year old, (ofcourse it was warrantied and one was sent next day from San Diego).

The Newen machine is a precise machine in the right "hands".
The Serdi is also a good machine and definitely more intuituve.

I look foward in the future to upgrading to the EPOC... to allow full concave and convex cuts. Also the Epoc machining head can cut at 4,500rpm, instead of the 1,500 rpm I currently use.

[crazycuda]

comparing a machine like the Rottler to a mill set up with an
airfloat roll over table, .. is one much faster "floor to floor" then the other?

Curtis

Im not to famiular with the rottler set up.

I recently crossed over to using a mill and air float table. IMOP I prefer the setup alot. aside from doing all the valve seat work you just change the cutter and mill the deck without ever taking the head off the mill. So I think that is a real time saver. Plus almost all of my G&S tooling works on the mill so that saved me $ on tooling.

[cboggs]

cuda,

what air float table do you have???

Curtis

[crazycuda]

cuda,

what air float table do you have???

Curtis

The mc glogan fixture. I think thats how its spelled.
I don't know who you deal with in your area for equiment. Try giving Hartley Equpiment a call, The guys name is Kevin he can give you all the info about the air float table for the mills. you might get his ans. machine because he is a 1 man operation 1-800-580-1883

[headman]

Kevin is a first class individual.
It would be well worth your time to contact him.