DRCE 3 Head casting

[SchmidtMotorWorks]

I saw a DRCE 3 head casting today, I guess it is the water jackets that cost so much because on the outside it looks like a big brick with ports about 1/2" stock on them and no chambers.

It looks like you could make about anything you wanted to out of them.

[Ron E]

The raw DRCE II was like that, but at least they were cheap.

[SchmidtMotorWorks]

Did you ever cut one open to see the water jackets?

[SchmidtMotorWorks]

The raw DRCE II was like that, but at least they were cheap.

I wonder if they have chips in them to identify clones. If not, I could make a duplicate pattern for them this afternoon, someone order a pizza, we'll "get-er-done".

Maybe the price is realted to the weight, I guess they weigh about 100 lbs, so that would be at least a $400 casting not including the tooling cost.

[SupStk]

I've always been curious about the heat treating on castings. Is it done before the machining operations or after?

[OldSStroker]

It looks like you could make about anything you wanted to out of them.

Isn't that exactly what they are for?

I believe it's 356-T6 aluminum. The heat treatment is done before machining. A finished head is closer lto 40 lbs. so there are going to be lots of chips.

[SchmidtMotorWorks]

Isn't that exactly what they are for?

I dunno, I was thinking that with all the smart people that run GM engines that they could make something a little more roughed-in than that.

I think water jacket wall thickness is important and if you have so much stock on the ports and no chamber shape at all I guess the water jackets must be really small so that people won't run into them.

It does look fun though, I would like to machine some if I knew someone that could help me model a good port and another person that could sell them.

[OldSStroker]

Isn't that exactly what they are for?

I dunno, I was thinking that with all the smart people that run GM engines that they could make something a little more roughed-in than that.

I think water jacket wall thickness is important and if you have so much stock on the ports and no chamber shape at all I guess the water jackets must be really small so that people won't run into them.

It does look fun though, I would like to machine some if I knew someone that could help me model a good port and another person that could sell them.

Shoot, the people who use them successfully with initials like WJ and GA won't even let folks look at their intake manifold exteriors, let alone the ports and combustion chambers.

You were perhaps looking at P/N 25534404 which is the raw casting. P/N 25534405 has most of the external stuff machined, but still has"The small cast ports and flat combustion chambers[to] provide ample material for custom port designs." It's easier to take it out than weld it in, right?

Wasn't it Michaelangelo that said, "Removing the material isn't the problem, it's knowing what material to remove that makes it David." He would have been a good, albeit slow, head porter.

[cboggs]

Isn't that exactly what they are for?

I dunno, I was thinking that with all the smart people that run GM engines that they could make something a little more roughed-in than that.

I think water jacket wall thickness is important and if you have so much stock on the ports and no chamber shape at all I guess the water jackets must be really small so that people won't run into them.

It does look fun though, I would like to machine some if I knew someone that could help me model a good port and another person that could sell them.

Yes they could make something more roughed in, .. but as oldsstroker
pointed out, they are made so we head porters can put whatever design
we want in them. That's the cool part about them, .. it's a "blank canvas"
waiting to be "painted"

it is fun, .. for cylinder head guys, at least to me, those are the most fun projects, but a BUNCH of work.

But WJ, Jenkins, etc. will never let you see one, .. and to machine some
and sell them, .. you'd have to find some power over the current
pro stock development and even then i'd be a tough sell.

Outside of pro stock, .. why use a DRCE when a well ported Brodix
Big Duke will get close enough for bracket racing and fit a Dart
block at 1/2 the cost of a DRCE block.

Curtis

[bc]

Does anyone know what WJ and the others do with their old heads?

[OldSStroker]

Does anyone know what WJ and the others do with their old heads?

They may keep them (locked up) for reference. When it's time to dispose of them, I'd be shocked if they don't saw them up and melt them down.

My guess is that there aren't all that many complete engines PS built, even for a 2-car team. More heads of course, but nowhere near the number a Cup team might have. I've heard numbers that say a top 5 ProStock engine costs about 3-4 times what a Cup engine costs to build. That's leaving out R&D costs.

Cup heads have much more specific NASCAR limits for ports, etc. There are also many variations and "generations", so older ones can be sold and the curent competition wouldn't learn anything from them. The stuff we see around, even if it's from one of the super-teams is 2-3 years old.

[SchmidtMotorWorks]

On the topic of what happens to old engines...one of the most memorable experiences I ever had in motorsports was at HPD. On my first day I climbed up on the side of a train-car sized dumpster to empty a trash can into it. When I looked over the edge I was so stunned and dizzy I almost fell off the ladder. The "trash-box" was nearly full of Indy engines most of them never even dissassembled, I mean wiring, manifolds, injectors, sensors everything all just waiting to be ground-up.

[Joe Mendelis]

My guess is that there aren't all that many complete engines PS built, even for a 2-car team. More heads of course, but nowhere near the number a Cup team might have. I've heard numbers that say a top 5 ProStock engine costs about 3-4 times what a Cup engine costs to build. That's leaving out R&D costs.

Cup heads have much more specific NASCAR limits for ports, etc. There are also many variations and "generations", so older ones can be sold and the curent competition wouldn't learn anything from them. The stuff we see around, even if it's from one of the super-teams is 2-3 years old.

Are you talking about a top five Cup engine? I can guarantee you the number one guy in the chase has a motor that costs $60,000+ in parts alone. If a Pro Stock engine costs $180,000- $240,000 just in parts alone thats pretty expensive. What makes them cost that much compared to a Cup engine?

[shawn]

The whole "top secret" stuff in most forms of high end racing kind of always amused me. I remember the first time i got a peek inside of a top qualifying motor. I expected to see things that i never had seen before. Some kind of unobtanium this or whiz bang double throw down that. I was shocked to see none of it. Just a well thought out combonation that has been slowly refined over years of experience from gifted hands.
I'm lucky enough to have friends (some of you here) in high places around the racing industry and it's always surprising to hear how little they have changed major components over the last few years. One of these friends is a head cylinder head guy for a major cup team. He told me that the port configuration they have is the same they have run for years. About the only thing they vary from it is the valve job slightly and slighty different chamber designs.It's the small things that you can't see that make the big difference, not the parts you see sitting on the shelf or lying on the bench.
To answer your question, some prostock teams will liquidate some parts. WJ gets ride of nothing. I only know of a few very, very select people that have ever received any of his "hand-me-down" parts.He has a collection of motor parts around that would make your jaw drop.
About the only one that i know of that is selling a competitive prostock head is CFE. You can buy a head from them that will qualify, if you want to pay the price and have all of rest of the parts to go with it. It's the rest of the combo. that's the tough part. Just ask Darin.
shawn

[cboggs]

Does anyone know what WJ and the others do with their old heads?

I don't know what WJ does with his, .. but I was at Jenkins a few weeks
ago and there where heads under every bench, .. and a stack of
sheet metal intakes, . .. .. my guess is if the stuff is current enough
it's either being run or stored till it's out of date.

Some of the older stuff is sold off to comp eliminator racers.

Curtis