Needle Bearing Crankshafts

ChrisU · Post by **ChrisU** » Sat Dec 17, 2005 7:14 pm

Now I suppose we would need a split race as well.........

RW TECH · Post by **RW TECH** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 12:06 pm

Chris,

What diameter is the ID of the bearing pictured in your post? Pins look small.....

devilbrad · Post by **devilbrad** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 12:30 pm

Mazda uses a lot of those split roller bearings in their manual transmissions (Miata, RX7, etc, rwd apps) all though they may be too small a diameter for any engine use. I'll have to look Monday see if I have any laying around at work.

ChrisU · Post by **ChrisU** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 12:42 pm

RW TECH wrote:Chris,

What diameter is the ID of the bearing pictured in your post? Pins look small.....

Yeah they're from the VW stuff that was mentioned... I tried to cross reference the parts but they seem to have a part number not associated with a bearing manuf....

putztastics · Post by **putztastics** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 2:14 pm

2.2=8 wrote:Hey Putz, If I may ask, where did you find split roller brgs? I've been looking for some to adapt my ohc 2.2 cam.

I don't remember, I did an internet search and had a few e-mail conversations with application engineers, they were industrial split roller bearings with split races. The reason they could be considered at all was that a 2.25 main journal crank in a 360 block would allow a much thicker setup than the bearing ChrisU posted a piture of. That setup required a pretty thick upper spacer and ProGram main caps machined for the 2.25 bearings. The caps held the upper spacers in place.

I think I know who you are, we made a 2.2 torque plate so we don't need to borrow yours. L&H Manufacturering waterjet cut it out of 1.125 steel using a head gasket as a pattern.

prostockford · Post by **prostockford** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 11:53 pm

The crankshafts used by the prostock guys were a single piece unit. The bearings are from a company in germany called Cerobear(www.cerobear.de). The bearings look like a wider version of a roller cam bearing just split down the middle, and just like a cam bearing, the crankshaft is the race for bearing. Also about Cerobear, they will make the bearing with steel rollers, because the first thing you will see about them is they specialize in ceramic bearings. I am not sure who made the crankshafts, but if i wanted to go that direction i would use a European company like Chambon, because of there background in F1.
Carrillo is the rod company that makes the steel rod that people run with no pin bushing. They came up with a alloy that they can almost duplicate the weight of a ti. rod, but has the stability of steel. You can run DLC coated wrist pin and no bushing without a problem on a engine that gets tore down often. They have also been trying to run without a bearing on the big end, so they can save even more weight on the rod. From what i hear they are having a problem with maintaining the oil wedge at the cheek area on the crank.

Ape · Post by **Ape** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 2:56 pm

@chrisu:

you might want to check with INA Needlebearings ( INA Schaeffler KG) a german bearing manufacturer who overtook years ago Dürkopp one of the companies that was specialized on those needle bearings. Maybe the #code was a factorynumber or a locked bearing# only available to specialmanufacturers, so that might be a reason why nothing can be found if right understood.

here the link:

http://www.ina.com/content/en/index.jsp?

Justin Jones · Post by **Justin Jones** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 2:48 pm

d'oh! i have split roller bearings sitting on my workbench from a suzuki RM250 engine and i didn't even remember...

ChrisU · Post by **ChrisU** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 2:52 pm

I wonder how they are handling crank thrust....I guess that could be needle bearing too like a torrington unit... how 'bout that...

RW TECH · Post by **RW TECH** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 2:57 pm

Sounds like it'd require a really good machine shop to ensure the faces on the block are extremely perpendicular to the main bores and that cap & block registers are identical in width.

Wouldn't be a huge deal with the right shop using the right tools. I think I know of a place that has that potential.

rebelyell · Post by **rebelyell** » Thu Apr 14, 2022 8:09 pm

Certain all OE HD twins from the thirties thru the seventies had rollers or needles on rods big ends and both sides of flywheels. Dunno about today. There were probably many other models and years as well. Old transmissions as well. Individual replacement bearings available in 0.0002" increments and races honed to fit. Not an insert or shell in the whole shebang. About '55 HD went to dual Timken tapered on output side; fitment via shim instead of hone.

dhidaka · Post by **dhidaka** » Thu Apr 14, 2022 9:36 pm

Kawasaki KZ1000 style engines from 1973 onward to 2005 police units had almost bulletproof multi-piece roller cranks. Both rods and mains. Used extensively in class drag racing motorcycles. Only drawback is that rod pins needed welding to maintain crank indexing under hard drag race starts. Factory oil pressure is only 3 PSI (warm) at 3,000 RPM with 10W40 oil.

Rick! · Post by **Rick!** » Fri Apr 15, 2022 6:57 am

Justin Jones wrote: ↑Fri Dec 16, 2005 9:56 pm Can anyone name a 2 stroke that DOESN'T have roller bearings? lol.

To answer the question; Rotax, Arty Cat, Polaris and Fuji. Never split the cases on my dirtcycles so I don't know about them.
Snowmobile engines (twins) use 4 ball bearings and needle bearings on each end of the rod on their multi-piece cranks.
The PTO outside ball bearings are a two row design so they can handle a bit of thrust from the belt drive yanking on it.
They are hella noisy, especially the needle bearings.
Oil is injected in the crankcase in 4 locations and a couple in the throttle body boot.
Since the emissions thing, they could really use piston squirters but the pumps don't provide that kind of pressure.
It's been this way for a long time, at least since the 90's.

63qcar · Post by **63qcar** » Fri Apr 15, 2022 2:53 pm

I used to race an E/P Porsche " back in the day " and the top runners all used the Hirth roller cranks . In talking to Bruce Jennings back in the early to mid `60`s , he told me that the roller had a few drawbacks . One was you couldn`t idle under 1500 rpm as the needle bearings would smear and not roll and destroy the crank . Rebuild cost was another . That was offset by being able to run reliably up to 7000 rpm with the existing oil pump on the 356A series Porsche engine . The stock pump was , shall we say , marginal for the track ( but we did have "legal" mods to increase flow ) .
Later , a company called SPG (?) came out with an " affordable" roller crank , which I ran . The Hirth crank was a $1500 unit back then , per Bruce.
I remember talking to Bruce one day and he said if he saw 15 to 20 psi on the gage at max rpm , he was happy .... idle barely moved the gage .
Same was true for the SPG crank .
As plain bearing cranks and bearings got better , there wasn`t a good reason to run the Hirth cranks vs what they cost initially and rebuild costs .... I was turning 7,000 rpm when needed with no problems all season .
Been a long time since I have heard the Hirth name .

Don Terrill’s Speed-Talk

Needle Bearing Crankshafts

Re: Needle Bearing Crankshafts

Re: Needle Bearing Crankshafts

Re:

Re: Needle Bearing Crankshafts