two ring piston for restricted engines
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two ring piston for restricted engines
has anyone heard or found about any definitive power found through the use of a two ring, l/w piston ?? went to a wiseco seminar @pri and it sounded like they were investing some time in r+d for the design....anyone have dyno comparisons?? can it control oiling? restricted intake circle track application.
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bill jones
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-I've run two simple two ringer engines where I just left the second ring out and I'd do it again if I was still racing my own engines.
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-I did one for an injected methanol 350SBC sprint car and had no problems with it but the driver couldn't/didn't show me sh-t so that engine wasn't a real good test.
-it ran plenty competitive tho during the mid 70's.
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-Did another 350 for a 65 chevelle oval track car about the same era where the engine rules were a 4412 and no visible porting looking down thru the heads intake ports and stock rockers were required.
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-This engine ran maybe 6 to 8 races a year---all the best paying races only---and won all but maybe one of those 6 to 8 races each year----and ran for 5 years with no internal attention to the shortblock or the heads.
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-That was a flattop piston (domes were allowed) 1642 bobweight----ran the engine 6500---had lightened up production rods and 3 of those rods had cracks at the rod bolt head area after that 5 year span.
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-I did one for an injected methanol 350SBC sprint car and had no problems with it but the driver couldn't/didn't show me sh-t so that engine wasn't a real good test.
-it ran plenty competitive tho during the mid 70's.
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-Did another 350 for a 65 chevelle oval track car about the same era where the engine rules were a 4412 and no visible porting looking down thru the heads intake ports and stock rockers were required.
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-This engine ran maybe 6 to 8 races a year---all the best paying races only---and won all but maybe one of those 6 to 8 races each year----and ran for 5 years with no internal attention to the shortblock or the heads.
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-That was a flattop piston (domes were allowed) 1642 bobweight----ran the engine 6500---had lightened up production rods and 3 of those rods had cracks at the rod bolt head area after that 5 year span.
I'd look at a two ring deal as more of a real estate issue on the piston than as a power gainer. Really not all that much drag from a back cut .043 ring. Running without means you may have to bump oil expander tension a bit to keep things dry - - and then what little gain there was is gone.
Better choice is to keep taking tension and radial wall thickness out of the oil ring package until things get "damp" - - and back up one step. You might be surprised how light you can go with a .160 wall oil ring.
A drill bit and a set of pliers can reduce tension.....try squeezing the humps .010 tighter every third hump or so...
Some Wiseco guy gave the same talk at AETC a year ago. Quoted a bunch of technical papers from Japanese guys at Riken piston ring. I asked him whether they had good technical contacts with Riken since they (Riken) would not talk to us (I was at Federal-Mogul at the time). He told me, in front of the audience, that he was strictly going from reading the published technical papers. That kind of bugged me at the time since he was positioning himself as aomething of a piston ring expert in front of a very knowledgable crowd and yet he had no true engineering relationship with the ring mfgr at all. I am NOT a ring expert - - but I might be better qualified than he is to fake it....
Better choice is to keep taking tension and radial wall thickness out of the oil ring package until things get "damp" - - and back up one step. You might be surprised how light you can go with a .160 wall oil ring.
A drill bit and a set of pliers can reduce tension.....try squeezing the humps .010 tighter every third hump or so...
Some Wiseco guy gave the same talk at AETC a year ago. Quoted a bunch of technical papers from Japanese guys at Riken piston ring. I asked him whether they had good technical contacts with Riken since they (Riken) would not talk to us (I was at Federal-Mogul at the time). He told me, in front of the audience, that he was strictly going from reading the published technical papers. That kind of bugged me at the time since he was positioning himself as aomething of a piston ring expert in front of a very knowledgable crowd and yet he had no true engineering relationship with the ring mfgr at all. I am NOT a ring expert - - but I might be better qualified than he is to fake it....
Survival Motorsports
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WD for Comp, Manley, Blue Thunder, Diamond
Probe, Holley, Clevite, Federal-Mogul, Scat....
www.survivalmotorsports.com
WD for Comp, Manley, Blue Thunder, Diamond
Probe, Holley, Clevite, Federal-Mogul, Scat....
rfl28, what are you building? I have used 2 rings pistons on a restricted road racing engine v-8. We ran it on dyno, tested at the track with excellent results, but it was never run in a race. I have talked with several ring and piston maufactures who all said I was wasting my time. Did it have a problem with oil contamination? power levels said no! I did have slightly more blow by, the numbers went from 2 to 3 at 7,000 rpm.
To do it properly you will need a special ring face, tighter piston to wall and a piston design to go along with a single comp ring.
If you are serious and can afford the extra costs I may be of some help.
To do it properly you will need a special ring face, tighter piston to wall and a piston design to go along with a single comp ring.
If you are serious and can afford the extra costs I may be of some help.
Here's a photo of a Ferrari 049 (Formula 1) piston
http://forums.autosport.com/showthread. ... gine+photo
They spend obscene amounts of money in F1 to answer questions like this!
http://forums.autosport.com/showthread. ... gine+photo
They spend obscene amounts of money in F1 to answer questions like this!
thanks bill, barry for the insight...and thanks to bobdar for the f1 pic..., mr motage, motor is tight rules 305 .030 (3.766) over sbc,wetsump, 3.48 stroke, vortec style heads w/1.85/1.50 valves. 1570 bobweight, dual plane int, 10.8:1 cr, 222/222 @.050,.447/.447" on a 114 lsa, 105 int centerline in @+4 @101, carb is 2brl 4412.....no porting of manifold or heads,i do have some compression left,chambers are limited to 53cc but ihave them @57cc right now, recently learned some good vj stuff, so i'm continuously looking to learn about rules and intake restricted motors, much more interesting.... after airflow techniques are expended,would'nt mechanical efficency(friction) be the place to look for power?? motors are option in a circle track crate series...i have much displeasure for the crates!!! thanks, bob
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bill jones
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-what are the rules on the crankshaft? concerning balancing-adding holes thru the rod journals-total crank weight limits etc?
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-what are the rules concerning fuel? do you have a choice of fuels-is it legal to cool the fuel-how do they check the fuel etc?
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-What can you use for an airfilter/lid and base? are you limited to what you can do inside the element area-can you run a ramair system-can you use steel/aluminum or carbon fiber etc ?
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-What are the rules on the ignition sytem?
-what are you using now? why are you using those components instead of something other?
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-What are you running for an oil system? pump-pan-scrapers-oil pressure-brand of oil-weight of oil-bearing clearances etc?
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-what are the rules concerning fuel? do you have a choice of fuels-is it legal to cool the fuel-how do they check the fuel etc?
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-What can you use for an airfilter/lid and base? are you limited to what you can do inside the element area-can you run a ramair system-can you use steel/aluminum or carbon fiber etc ?
----------------------------------------------
-What are the rules on the ignition sytem?
-what are you using now? why are you using those components instead of something other?
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-What are you running for an oil system? pump-pan-scrapers-oil pressure-brand of oil-weight of oil-bearing clearances etc?
I have run a two ring set up's for several years in a 351C Super Stock engine. Previously I was running .020 over bores with .031 dykes, 1/16 and 3/16 oil rings. I had run rings from both Childs and Albert and Speed pro. After filling the blocks I was able to keep the cylinders round enough to feel comfortable opening them up to .060".
The car was a NHRA record holder with the three ring pistons but the combination of the extra .040 bore, cylinder stiffness, reducing friction, and oil control the car had run better by .09 second.
Might not be the best choice for everyone but it worked for me.
The car was a NHRA record holder with the three ring pistons but the combination of the extra .040 bore, cylinder stiffness, reducing friction, and oil control the car had run better by .09 second.
Might not be the best choice for everyone but it worked for me.
thanks for the reply superstock....bill jones ...gm crank or lookalike, must weigh 50# but i have never seen a motor torn down that far,eagle 5.7 i-beams, must be 5.7, lwt wiseco(380 gr) piston...gasoline only, we're using 110 vp right now, use the k+n 4" deep air filter, stock gm hei ignition,but have'nt played w/ different saturation coils yet..., cheap wet sump pan w/ 2 trap doors and small windage screen, clearances are .0028-.0032, all. 60 # op on the wood, about 35# @ idle , i like 15/40 oils or 10/30, drain back holes are BIG...dont like that 20/50 goo , got to remember this is a low budget deal, but we're still trying to pummel the crates...thanks, bob
stand on it!
-
bill jones
- Guru
- Posts: 2650
- Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2004 6:38 pm
- Location: salt lake city, ut
- Contact:
-
bill jones
- Guru
- Posts: 2650
- Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2004 6:38 pm
- Location: salt lake city, ut
- Contact:
-I don't know how much you personally know about making power with 4412's but there is a lot of details about EVERYTHING of that 4412 and the entry and exits of the air from the 4412---and understanding what g-forces and high WOT manifold vacuum do to the fuel distribution and atomization.
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-I doubt that you can buy more than about 1/2 of the 4412 power then you have to do the rest yourself because nobody will come off ALL of the secrets.
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-Being on a budget means the racer is bound to lose unless he is 100% devoted and equipped towards learning the secrets himself because money usually begets enough of those secrets to stay up front.
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-The rules challenges are to know what rules are being enforced and when they are being enforced and just how sharp the tech guys are---and how to keep the competitors from looking at your stuff.
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-I'd be curious as to where your racers stack up in the competition and how their budgets stack up with those other racers that are finishing in front of them.
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-As far as runnng two ring pistons I'd recommend that you do at least one simple two ringer where you just leave the 2nd ring out---but this is based on my results of running standard old 1/16"x1/16" x 3/16" ring packages.
-The newer light tension back cut or undercut and thin rings of today probably aren't going to show you much---but it matters if it's ANYTHING.
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-I doubt that you can buy more than about 1/2 of the 4412 power then you have to do the rest yourself because nobody will come off ALL of the secrets.
---------------------------------------------------
-Being on a budget means the racer is bound to lose unless he is 100% devoted and equipped towards learning the secrets himself because money usually begets enough of those secrets to stay up front.
-------------------------------------------------
-The rules challenges are to know what rules are being enforced and when they are being enforced and just how sharp the tech guys are---and how to keep the competitors from looking at your stuff.
-------------------------------------------------
-I'd be curious as to where your racers stack up in the competition and how their budgets stack up with those other racers that are finishing in front of them.
--------------------------------------------------
-As far as runnng two ring pistons I'd recommend that you do at least one simple two ringer where you just leave the 2nd ring out---but this is based on my results of running standard old 1/16"x1/16" x 3/16" ring packages.
-The newer light tension back cut or undercut and thin rings of today probably aren't going to show you much---but it matters if it's ANYTHING.