An engine that I am considering using for racing purposes is not available in "Heavy Duty" form, so it is the stock block or nothing.
Now before I go any further, certain things are a given:
It will be a lot of hard work, and time consuming, but all the welding (Mig Tig), cutting and machining requirements are to hand or can be subbed (luckily in the region I live we still make things and don't just unload Chinese containers). The actual construction, if constructed of sub-assemblies. I see as quite straight forward.........As it is my own baby cost of this doesn't come into this.
The proposal is to fabricate a block out of steel plate and tube, made on a jig to ensure accuracy. Once complete the entire assembly will be "annealed" to stress relieve, shot blasted then machined.
The only question that keeps coming back to me is what effect the lack of inherent dampening of the steel (as opposed too cast iron) will have on component life/reliability. I have been assured that the only other nagging question i had (concernig the "suitability" of steel as a cylinder running surface) is really a non-issue, if correctly honed (I have a CV 616).
Can you see any others?
Yes I had considered furnace brazing sleeves in but that won't make the bottom end any stronger.
There is a bit of a precedent as some racing engines have been (at least partly) made this way, the 1955 Mercedes straight eight, for example
When you've stopped laughing any constructive comments would be appreciated. John.
Fabricated Steel Block?
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Here's one that was in production for some time: http://www.ggw.org/~cac/EngineTree/Cros ... _Tree.html
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joe
Are you talking about a cleveland block perchance ? I've seen you logged in at the cleveland forum but you haven't posted as yet , know that you are welcome .
What kind of racing are you talking about ? If it's drag the bulkheads won't give any trouble A.J. ran 1,000 hp thru a stock block that was epoxied and had fewer troubles that he later had with Al 429 blocks . He filled the jackets with devcon aluminum F2 epoxy ,largely because it's so much lighter than competing products and he had very few problems with the blocks , considering.
sleeve the lifter bores if you can ,definitely if you're going past 8,000 rpm.
Even when they could get those blocks furnace brazed they had to spend big money and wait over a year to have them delivered , dean coontz did that , I believe. So they found another way to skin the cat cause one block per year ain't gonna do it for a pro stocker ! Anyway Jim ran later than glidden ,nicholson ,all the rest . He ran well into the 80's and with nitrous made 1000 hp , sometimes spun over 11,000 .
Even if it isn't a cleveland I gotta tell you I'm a big fan of cast iron and/or cgi I just don't think you can make a block out of anything better no matter what lengths you may be considering going to .
What kind of racing are you talking about ? If it's drag the bulkheads won't give any trouble A.J. ran 1,000 hp thru a stock block that was epoxied and had fewer troubles that he later had with Al 429 blocks . He filled the jackets with devcon aluminum F2 epoxy ,largely because it's so much lighter than competing products and he had very few problems with the blocks , considering.
sleeve the lifter bores if you can ,definitely if you're going past 8,000 rpm.
Even when they could get those blocks furnace brazed they had to spend big money and wait over a year to have them delivered , dean coontz did that , I believe. So they found another way to skin the cat cause one block per year ain't gonna do it for a pro stocker ! Anyway Jim ran later than glidden ,nicholson ,all the rest . He ran well into the 80's and with nitrous made 1000 hp , sometimes spun over 11,000 .
Even if it isn't a cleveland I gotta tell you I'm a big fan of cast iron and/or cgi I just don't think you can make a block out of anything better no matter what lengths you may be considering going to .
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putztastics
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Another guy and I brain stormed this idea, we thought splitting a v block vertically would be interesting, bolting it together with horizontal bolts, the cam bearings could be automotive main or rod bearings. I would guess it has already been done sometime, somewhere.
You could always use normal cylinder sleeves in steel cylinders.
Steel might rust easier in the water jacket than cast iron I don't know if there are rust inhibitors out there that would stop that.
You could always use normal cylinder sleeves in steel cylinders.
Steel might rust easier in the water jacket than cast iron I don't know if there are rust inhibitors out there that would stop that.
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Keith Morganstein
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[quote][The proposal is to fabricate a block out of steel plate and tube, made on a jig to ensure accuracy. Once complete the entire assembly will be "annealed" to stress relieve, shot blasted then machined/quote]
MAKE A 1000 OR MORE HORSEPOWER FOR A MILLION MILES WITH A FABRICATED STEEL BLOCK.
It's all true! http://www.sdrm.org/roster/diesel/emd/567_int_1.jpg
MAKE A 1000 OR MORE HORSEPOWER FOR A MILLION MILES WITH A FABRICATED STEEL BLOCK.
It's all true! http://www.sdrm.org/roster/diesel/emd/567_int_1.jpg
Automotive Machining, cylinder head rebuilding, engine building. Can't seem to quit 
Thanks for all the input. Might not have been such a dumb question after all.
Joe.......while the idea of a steel "Cleveland" has passed my mind I thought it would be wiser to cut my teeth on a more manageable project so the answer is no, but maybe. Most of the racng in the UK is done with four cyl engines and the idea was to put one together around three litres. At this size it would shake like a b*****d (sorry about the reference, it's not gratuitous, just the phrase we all use), so if there were going to be any problems then I'm sure they would be seen. As I can do most of my own machining if it lunched itself it wouldn't be the end of the world.
Yes I've been viewing the 335 site (don't think they've made me a member yet?) as have a particular interest in Clevelands (I have four, two 351's & two 302's plus bits, all Aussie, plus some windsor stuff). Getting such stuff in the UK is a deal in itself. I am particularly interested in the discussions on 2V porting and the conflicting advice, especially about the SSR. Having three sets of quench 2V heads (Aussie 302) and a use for them I was keen to see if around 270cfm was sensibly available but I don't like the idea of laying back the SSR. But guess that's a post on it's own.
Once again thanks for the "steel block" input and if there's any more don't be shy.
John.
Joe.......while the idea of a steel "Cleveland" has passed my mind I thought it would be wiser to cut my teeth on a more manageable project so the answer is no, but maybe. Most of the racng in the UK is done with four cyl engines and the idea was to put one together around three litres. At this size it would shake like a b*****d (sorry about the reference, it's not gratuitous, just the phrase we all use), so if there were going to be any problems then I'm sure they would be seen. As I can do most of my own machining if it lunched itself it wouldn't be the end of the world.
Yes I've been viewing the 335 site (don't think they've made me a member yet?) as have a particular interest in Clevelands (I have four, two 351's & two 302's plus bits, all Aussie, plus some windsor stuff). Getting such stuff in the UK is a deal in itself. I am particularly interested in the discussions on 2V porting and the conflicting advice, especially about the SSR. Having three sets of quench 2V heads (Aussie 302) and a use for them I was keen to see if around 270cfm was sensibly available but I don't like the idea of laying back the SSR. But guess that's a post on it's own.
Once again thanks for the "steel block" input and if there's any more don't be shy.
John.
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SchmidtMotorWorks
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Ordinary plain mild steel. Think it would have the right properties on the whole (strength,ductility,machinability) especially when annealed. And thanks for the suggestion but hogging one out of a lump of ally might just put me in my box! lol. And here in the Uk a piece of ally that big would cost a small fortune (Our prices are at a guess 2-3 times yours). And I dont think it would turn out (pardon the pun) much lighter. Anyway all the reports I've read about open deck ally blocks suggest welding them up if big power is required (seen it done on Honda's etc). But yes in some situations I guess you could, and end up with the right motor.
Cheers John.
Cheers John.
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OldSStroker
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John,
What are your power and rpm goals for the 3L? A 6500-7000 rpm 6L V8 should get 600 fwhp without too much trouble, so 300 fwhp is reasonable using an aftermarket V8 head. 300 cfm out of the box isn't too much trouble for some of them.
Pontiac built a 3.18L 4 cyl 4.06 x 3.75 back in 1961-63 by cutting the left bank of cyllinders off a V8. I had one and yes it shook like the child of an unwed mother. That was fixed with the torquetube/transaxle mounting, but that's another story.
Instead of fabricating a block, how about cutting off one bank of a V8 block and either welding/brazing or bolting on a cover over the surgery? It would seem like a lot less work than building a complete block. It would be a 45 degree slant 4, but that isn't all bad for CG height or weight distribution. If you are using RH drive, cut off the right bank. Since we are in the Colonies and drive on the "wrong" side of the road, Pontiac cut off the left bank.
You'll need a bespoke crank anyway, right? I'd look for a block with small mains like an older Chev, or Windsor. Most all of the V8 bits will work. You'll need a billet cam core, but folks like Comp Cams can do that from a V8 cam for less than a fortune.
If I were doing the welded mild steel (low carbon) block I'd use cast iron sleeves instead of running on the steel. Look at how Darton sleeves work in an LS1 block.
Yes, you should stress relieve, not necessarily "anneal" the weldment . The SR temp is much lower than the anneal temp.
I've always wanted to make a slant 4 from a SBC for a street rod. Never did.
Good Luck!
What are your power and rpm goals for the 3L? A 6500-7000 rpm 6L V8 should get 600 fwhp without too much trouble, so 300 fwhp is reasonable using an aftermarket V8 head. 300 cfm out of the box isn't too much trouble for some of them.
Pontiac built a 3.18L 4 cyl 4.06 x 3.75 back in 1961-63 by cutting the left bank of cyllinders off a V8. I had one and yes it shook like the child of an unwed mother. That was fixed with the torquetube/transaxle mounting, but that's another story.
Instead of fabricating a block, how about cutting off one bank of a V8 block and either welding/brazing or bolting on a cover over the surgery? It would seem like a lot less work than building a complete block. It would be a 45 degree slant 4, but that isn't all bad for CG height or weight distribution. If you are using RH drive, cut off the right bank. Since we are in the Colonies and drive on the "wrong" side of the road, Pontiac cut off the left bank.
You'll need a bespoke crank anyway, right? I'd look for a block with small mains like an older Chev, or Windsor. Most all of the V8 bits will work. You'll need a billet cam core, but folks like Comp Cams can do that from a V8 cam for less than a fortune.
If I were doing the welded mild steel (low carbon) block I'd use cast iron sleeves instead of running on the steel. Look at how Darton sleeves work in an LS1 block.
Yes, you should stress relieve, not necessarily "anneal" the weldment . The SR temp is much lower than the anneal temp.
I've always wanted to make a slant 4 from a SBC for a street rod. Never did.
Good Luck!
[i]"There are some people who, if they don't already know, you can't tell 'em."[b]....Yogi Berra[/b][/i]
[i]"Being able to "think outside the box" presupposes you were able to think in it." [b]--Bob Lutz[/b][/i]
[i]"Being able to "think outside the box" presupposes you were able to think in it." [b]--Bob Lutz[/b][/i]
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joe
What kind of head were you intending to put on it ? That will affect the difficulty of building the block ,as you know. I'm begining to get a picture of how one might do an ohc block , otherwise it seems greatly more difficult.
check out kostecki engine center's website on the web . just google for kostecki engine center go in there and read their articles . they've done a mess of cleveland stuff and thy can help you sort out the 2v heads .It's true that getting over about 240 cfm requires a completely different approach but they have been able to make 500 horse with 240 and 9.something:1 comp.
check out kostecki engine center's website on the web . just google for kostecki engine center go in there and read their articles . they've done a mess of cleveland stuff and thy can help you sort out the 2v heads .It's true that getting over about 240 cfm requires a completely different approach but they have been able to make 500 horse with 240 and 9.something:1 comp.
Thanks for the replies>
The power will be around 100bhp per litre (a similar tune to what we call "rally spec" over here). The rpm figure is spot on.
No a bespoke crank is not needed. By slighty offsetting the bores I can gain enough to put a 4" bore in there (Giving better piston choice). Yes I know that the rods will run slightly off centre (the venerable Leyland "A" series did this and produces over 100bhp per litre) but not enough to cause a problem, and one of the pin bosses will need narrowing. The crank in question was available from the factory as a quality steel production forging, with generous journals) so can be offset ground to get me up to three litres (with a 4.030 bore 92mm will get it done and its already near that).
Due to the slight offset the chambers will still be close enough not to cause a problem. Yes it is a sohc which solves many potential problems.
I don't think that the steel cylinder thing is a big issue to be honest. We have a local company that produces nitrided steel cylinder liners for, amongst other things, high mileage large capacity CI engines.
And thanks for the info on the Cleveland stuff.
John
The power will be around 100bhp per litre (a similar tune to what we call "rally spec" over here). The rpm figure is spot on.
No a bespoke crank is not needed. By slighty offsetting the bores I can gain enough to put a 4" bore in there (Giving better piston choice). Yes I know that the rods will run slightly off centre (the venerable Leyland "A" series did this and produces over 100bhp per litre) but not enough to cause a problem, and one of the pin bosses will need narrowing. The crank in question was available from the factory as a quality steel production forging, with generous journals) so can be offset ground to get me up to three litres (with a 4.030 bore 92mm will get it done and its already near that).
Due to the slight offset the chambers will still be close enough not to cause a problem. Yes it is a sohc which solves many potential problems.
I don't think that the steel cylinder thing is a big issue to be honest. We have a local company that produces nitrided steel cylinder liners for, amongst other things, high mileage large capacity CI engines.
And thanks for the info on the Cleveland stuff.
John
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joe
If the crank's offset in the direction of the major thrust wall it can benefit power ..
chomo cylinders work very well for longevity some WWII aircraft /tanks used these since they were required to survive 1000 hours under FULL LOAD ! I'm sure you can figure a way to make them seal , that's just an engineering problem.
chomo cylinders work very well for longevity some WWII aircraft /tanks used these since they were required to survive 1000 hours under FULL LOAD ! I'm sure you can figure a way to make them seal , that's just an engineering problem.
Perhaps didn't explain myself too well Joe...
The offset is longitudinal to gain bore space.
And my mate who used to work at Sunnen UK can't see any real problems with steel cylinders.
The local company doing the liners is Laystall and I think they did "Chromard" and other liners that were not just steel but hardened/plated too.
Anyway thanks for indulging me and the replies. I'm off to the mountains to chuck some snow about with my board in the morning but will pick up the thread on return. Obviously if it goes down like a knackered lift then fair does but if people pick it up then great.
All the best John.
The offset is longitudinal to gain bore space.
And my mate who used to work at Sunnen UK can't see any real problems with steel cylinders.
The local company doing the liners is Laystall and I think they did "Chromard" and other liners that were not just steel but hardened/plated too.
Anyway thanks for indulging me and the replies. I'm off to the mountains to chuck some snow about with my board in the morning but will pick up the thread on return. Obviously if it goes down like a knackered lift then fair does but if people pick it up then great.
All the best John.