Q for Larry M: intake velocity profile and CSA
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Q for Larry M: intake velocity profile and CSA
Larry,
Your Pipemax software is awesome---taking my cylinder head knowledge to a new level.
I have a question on your calcs for recommended CSA's and velocities. My question/pondering is this: I always assumed that the smallest CSA in the intake tract (plenum to valve seat) should be at the valve throat, and before and after that should get larger. So if you plot a velocity profile from plenum to seat, the throat is always fastest. But this disagrees somewhat with your software. For example, Pipemax recommends 1.948in2 for the recommended smallest port CSA for your Chevy SS 362 at 7200RPM. This is smaller than the throat area of 2.394in2. However on the ProStock motors, the throat is the smallest CSA: 4.024in2 throat vs. 4.389in2 recommend port CSA. Both of these engines make great power.
This confuses me a little bit ----I'm looking for guidance on when to make the throat the smallest, or when to violate this rule and let some other section of the port be smaller. I'm currently working on a head with a 1.88 intake valve head---your software suggests a 1.634in2 port CSA with a 2.239in2 throat. I look forward to your wisdom on this.
Your Pipemax software is awesome---taking my cylinder head knowledge to a new level.
I have a question on your calcs for recommended CSA's and velocities. My question/pondering is this: I always assumed that the smallest CSA in the intake tract (plenum to valve seat) should be at the valve throat, and before and after that should get larger. So if you plot a velocity profile from plenum to seat, the throat is always fastest. But this disagrees somewhat with your software. For example, Pipemax recommends 1.948in2 for the recommended smallest port CSA for your Chevy SS 362 at 7200RPM. This is smaller than the throat area of 2.394in2. However on the ProStock motors, the throat is the smallest CSA: 4.024in2 throat vs. 4.389in2 recommend port CSA. Both of these engines make great power.
This confuses me a little bit ----I'm looking for guidance on when to make the throat the smallest, or when to violate this rule and let some other section of the port be smaller. I'm currently working on a head with a 1.88 intake valve head---your software suggests a 1.634in2 port CSA with a 2.239in2 throat. I look forward to your wisdom on this.
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on the Chevy SS 362 at 7200RPM with 1.948 area and 1.940 OD ValveThis confuses me a little bit ----I'm looking for guidance on when to make the throat the smallest, or when to violate this rule and let some other section of the port be smaller. I'm currently working on a head with a 1.88 intake valve head---your software suggests a 1.634in2 port CSA with a 2.239in2 throat. I look forward to your wisdom on this.
the reasons the FPS is faster in the Port than at the Throat,
1- the #041x SBC Head is only 165 CC
Port_Vol_CC = CenterLineLength * CSA * 16.387
164.97 CC = 5.168 * 1.948 * 16.387
NHRA = 165 CC max
1.948 SqInch Area is PipeMax recommended
"Smallest Port Area" ...and thats what it is at approx 165 CC's
the FPS Speed is faster in Port than Throat area due to 165cc limit
2- the GM designed Port Shape, 23 deg angle , location of valve
relative to Bore Center @ .500" Lift, etc...all factor into how much
CFM this design can achieve and still remain at 165 CC and pass
NHRA Tech.....so what happens is the VE% and the CFM/SqInch of Valve
Area is much lower than a modern ProStock Head,
and the Velocity FPS is slower at the Throat
The VE%= 104 or so
3- the 1.940" OD Valve is capable of Flowing a greater amount of
CFM/SqInch than it shows in the #041x design.
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on the 500 cid ProStock example
the situation is sort of opposite than the SS362
the ProStock Heads are modern "unlimited" design,
Heads flow a higher CFM/SqInch of Valve Area number
along with higher VE%,
so the Velocity FPS is higher at the Throat than the Port
so a high flowing Head, with great Ve%, and with a relatively
smallish Valve will show you more Throat FPS than Port FPS
if the Throat FPS is too much faster than 311-330 FPS or so,
its beginning to show the Valve OD might be too small ?
i don't think any "fast" top running 500 cid ProStock Engine
is running a 2.430" OD size Intake Valve ??
that would be about 350 fps @ Throat
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I'm currently working on a head with a 1.88 intake valve head---
you might look at the included PipeMax File => CHRY_360.PMD
thats a NHRA SS360 with a 1.880" OD Intake valve
OEM CenterLine Length approx = 4.948"
in Ported/Epoxy Form a little longer "internal length" than OEM
NHRA max= 162 CC
OEM 156.6 CC = 4.948" * 1.931 CSA * 16.387
so in ported Form, closer to NHRA limit of 162 CC's
in that Head it shares the same limits/problems as the Chevy #041x
its also slower FPS at the Throat
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in your particular application,
it just depends on a bunch of relative Factors,
as to the achievable Throat FPS -VS- Port FPS
if your Heads are great modern designs,
you will probably achieve higher FPS @ Throat
and vice/versa
port size
Larry,great program just got it,and was going to have same question as 88 power...
so is it saying that ,the csa for that rpm is the lowest you can go ...
but not neseceralily the way you would build the port...
i put in specs for a 351cleveland with a 2.04 inlet valve dia...
and peak hp at 6000 rpm...
with 100% ve it is saying that the inlet port entry should be no larger than 2.065,when the throat should be 2.647...
i would have to epoxy the entry up?...as standard they are around 2.750...
sorry if i am not getting this..i know i'm missing something...
or should i be looking at the velocity instead...
thank you
so is it saying that ,the csa for that rpm is the lowest you can go ...
but not neseceralily the way you would build the port...
i put in specs for a 351cleveland with a 2.04 inlet valve dia...
and peak hp at 6000 rpm...
with 100% ve it is saying that the inlet port entry should be no larger than 2.065,when the throat should be 2.647...
i would have to epoxy the entry up?...as standard they are around 2.750...
sorry if i am not getting this..i know i'm missing something...
or should i be looking at the velocity instead...
thank you
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Re: port size
tryout out a few Calculations using this Equation=>GREG K wrote:Larry,great program just got it,and was going to have same question as 88 power...
so is it saying that ,the csa for that rpm is the lowest you can go ...
but not neseceralily the way you would build the port...
i put in specs for a 351cleveland with a 2.04 inlet valve dia...
and peak hp at 6000 rpm...
with 100% ve it is saying that the inlet port entry should be no larger than 2.065,when the throat should be 2.647...
i would have to epoxy the entry up?...as standard they are around 2.750...
sorry if i am not getting this..i know i'm missing something...
or should i be looking at the velocity instead...
thank you
FPS =( CFM * 2.4 ) / CSA
174.55 fps = ( 200 * 2.4 ) / 2.750 area
decent Velocity FPS is 250 FPS or higher
then try this Equation=>
CFM = FPS * CSA * .41666667
286.5 = 250 * 2.750 * .41666667
How much CFM@28" would your Cleveland Heads have to Flow
in order to achieve 250 FPS ?
286.5 cfm
you will probably need to Port Heads to Flow at least 287+ CFM
and think about Peak HP occuring a little higher than 6000 RPM (7000)
to effectively use 2.750 CSA better, or otherwise just be happy with
the slower FPS and the Combination you have ?
All these Numbers are just Calculated Theoreticals,
use a J-Style Pitot Probe to see the real FPS Velocities.
port size
thanks Larry
so would it be fair to say,that if i wanted to have the peak hp at 6000 rpm...and keep that 2.04 valve size...then i would really have to shrink the port down in the right places and make it more efficient for that rpm and valve size...
so would it be fair to say,that if i wanted to have the peak hp at 6000 rpm...and keep that 2.04 valve size...then i would really have to shrink the port down in the right places and make it more efficient for that rpm and valve size...
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Re: port size
yes , epoxing up all the relatively dead-areas to achieve higher FPS.GREG K wrote:thanks Larry
so would it be fair to say,that if i wanted to have the peak hp at 6000 rpm...and keep that 2.04 valve size...then i would really have to shrink the port down in the right places and make it more efficient for that rpm and valve size...
be sure to use Pitot Probe to find and keep track of FPS in Port, and
applying Epoxy has its problems also....you don't want any coming loose.
i highly recommend you purchase Splash-Zone or KopCoat from
Reher-Morrison.
i would experiment applying Epoxy on junk Heads to gain experience.
Rough up surfaces with "chipped" Carbide-Burrs, clean all surfaces
with Dupont 3608S Laquer Thinner, lite pre-heat with (2) electric Heaters,
apply Epoxy, then Cure Heads with (2) Heaters one on each side,
always mix and use more Epoxy than needed, grind down later.
the Cleveland Head is about 30 year old design.
the FPS will be slow at 2.750 CSA at 6000 RPM.
Running numbers in PipeMax,
the very most a 351cid @ 6000 RPM will Pump is 280 or so CFM at 125 Ve%
but in reality it will never achieve anywhere near 125 VE @ 6000,
i'd work your Combo to make peak HP at 7000 RPM....you would
have a better chance of making the Port, the Valve OD, all workout better
PORT SIZE
Thanks very much Larry...
the information that you and others give out on this forum is invaluable,and really helps a person quicken his learning process...
it's one thing to buy a flowbench,but it's another thing to no how to use it and correlate the information that you see on it,and what you see on the track...you guys are like a flowbench manual...a proper one...
i started reading this forum about 8 months ago and you and darrin in particular,made me buy a flowbench,audie pitot tubes,and now pipemax...
so it's a credit to don terrill as well,for this forum and the interveiw disks..
you should interview Larry some day... now that would be good...
the information that you and others give out on this forum is invaluable,and really helps a person quicken his learning process...
it's one thing to buy a flowbench,but it's another thing to no how to use it and correlate the information that you see on it,and what you see on the track...you guys are like a flowbench manual...a proper one...
i started reading this forum about 8 months ago and you and darrin in particular,made me buy a flowbench,audie pitot tubes,and now pipemax...
so it's a credit to don terrill as well,for this forum and the interveiw disks..
you should interview Larry some day... now that would be good...
If you look at the pipemax output in the HP/TQ with analyses section, you'll see that the port velocities for each cross sectional area it gives you are the same regardless of the combo.
That means that the actual cross sectional area the program suggests will depend on the Ve% and RPM you input into it. The higher the Ve% or the RPM the larger the cross sectional areas it suggests.
Is that correct Larry?
SWB
That means that the actual cross sectional area the program suggests will depend on the Ve% and RPM you input into it. The higher the Ve% or the RPM the larger the cross sectional areas it suggests.
Is that correct Larry?
SWB
PORT SIZE
i agree,and that is what confused me at the start...
this program is helping me realise that with the 2v cleveland head,with the standard csa's that it has,and a 2.04 intake valve...if you want to have your peak hp at 6000 rpm (using standard rocker gear),then you really have to shrink the port down,and perhaps use a slighlt smaller throat to valve percent ratio (85-88%),as pipemax uses the 90% rule...
which is better suited to 7000 rpm plus...cleveland 2v have a 80% throat size standard,and you really only have to take this up to 85% if you want peak hp around 6000 rpm...but then you find that the rest of the port upstream of the throat is probably a little large for this particular 6000 rpm limit...so you have to epoxy up certain areas...
but yeah,as soon as you move the rpm up to say,7000rpm,then the standard port size is better,although still needs work in areas,but this time making them larger...
this program is helping me realise that with the 2v cleveland head,with the standard csa's that it has,and a 2.04 intake valve...if you want to have your peak hp at 6000 rpm (using standard rocker gear),then you really have to shrink the port down,and perhaps use a slighlt smaller throat to valve percent ratio (85-88%),as pipemax uses the 90% rule...
which is better suited to 7000 rpm plus...cleveland 2v have a 80% throat size standard,and you really only have to take this up to 85% if you want peak hp around 6000 rpm...but then you find that the rest of the port upstream of the throat is probably a little large for this particular 6000 rpm limit...so you have to epoxy up certain areas...
but yeah,as soon as you move the rpm up to say,7000rpm,then the standard port size is better,although still needs work in areas,but this time making them larger...
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yes, that's correct !SWB wrote:If you look at the pipemax output in the HP/TQ with analyses section, you'll see that the port velocities for each cross sectional area it gives you are the same regardless of the combo.
That means that the actual cross sectional area the program suggests will depend on the Ve% and RPM you input into it. The higher the Ve% or the RPM the larger the cross sectional areas it suggests.
Is that correct Larry?---SWB
you can also change the Velocity FPS in the [Menu]
that will allow you to see the new Column CSA's at that new FPS