Rings not seating?

engineer · Post by **engineer** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 10:05 am

I recently rebuilt a BBC for a friend that does not seem to have seated the rings. The engine had about 900 miles on it and two cam lobes had worn off. He brought it to me and I put a hydraulic roller in it. The bores looked good, still showing the cross hatch, so everything was cleaned, new bearings put in and reassembled. The rings were removed and cleaned well during the cleaning process. Now the engine puffs smoke out the left side and is using a lot of oil. It has less than 500 miles since it was put back in. Should I have put new rings and rehoned the block? What can be done short of tearing it back apart and doing that?
I know this is pretty simple for this board, but I am looking for good advice, so this is the place.

Thanks,

Alan

CNC BLOCKS · Post by **CNC BLOCKS** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 10:56 am

It may valve guides and seals maybe intake gasket not sealing but find out if the block was plate honed and here is a link I did a while back on a BBC that came in the shop.
http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=58964

Darin Morgan · Post by **Darin Morgan** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 1:41 pm

CNC BLOCKS wrote:It may valve guides and seals maybe intake gasket not sealing but find out if the block was plate honed and here is a link I did a while back on a BBC that came in the shop.
http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=58964

If I understand your statements on the other site about the guy from NY. Did he not say that Torque plates do not make a difference??? Is that what he was stating? If so, he is on drugs! In this day and age with all the R&D that has been done in the past on cylinder wall distortion, torque plate honing, laser honing, diamond honing and, hot honing I find it shocking that a person would not believe in something as simple as Torque plate honing!

T RICK · Post by **T RICK** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 2:41 pm

I belive in plate honing but have always wondered about the use of angle milled heads and the change of clamping surfce angle. Also is there anything in block bore size to plate bore size?

Rick

larrycoyle · Post by **larrycoyle** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 3:05 pm

T Rick, you mention the change in clamping surface angle on heads that have been angle milled. You need to further explain your logic here because this is an untrue statement. Please clarify for me and the others that will read this post.

Larry

T RICK · Post by **T RICK** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 3:44 pm

If you angle mill the head and the intake side is taller and the spark plug side is shorter(SBC). Then the bolt sufrace on top of the head (bolt head/washer clamp area) is no longer parralell to the block and the bolt hole is no longer straight. Should the honeing plate be angle milled to match the application? Does the head bolt or stud slighty bend to compensate for the angle change and would it cause any noticeable distortion of the bore? Is angle milling to change valve to piston angle no longer a thing to do?

Rick

Wolfplace · Post by **Wolfplace** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 4:26 pm

T RICK wrote:If you angle mill the head and the intake side is taller and the spark plug side is shorter(SBC). Then the bolt sufrace on top of the head (bolt head/washer clamp area) is no longer parralell to the block and the bolt hole is no longer straight. Should the honeing plate be angle milled to match the application? Does the head bolt or stud slighty bend to compensate for the angle change and would it cause any noticeable distortion of the bore? Is angle milling to change valve to piston angle no longer a thing to do?

Rick

=
Rick,
If you are angle milling heads & not correcting the bolt bosses & holes along with the intake face as necessary you should not be angle milling heads

Darin,
You would need to read some of the post's from the gentleman in NY to believe what he has recommended.
The torque plate deal is one
Another favorite is ring gapping
And an even more interesting one is his "testing" of 5/16" pushrods in hyd roller BB application to save weight for more RPM,,,,

Apparently light weight in favor of stability has gained favor in some circles,,,,

T RICK · Post by **T RICK** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 4:30 pm

Thanks not an engine builder just courious as I have never heard what was done if anything

Rick

Wolfplace · Post by **Wolfplace** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 4:44 pm

engineer wrote:I recently rebuilt a BBC for a friend that does not seem to have seated the rings. The engine had about 900 miles on it and two cam lobes had worn off. He brought it to me and I put a hydraulic roller in it. The bores looked good, still showing the cross hatch, so everything was cleaned, new bearings put in and reassembled. The rings were removed and cleaned well during the cleaning process. Now the engine puffs smoke out the left side and is using a lot of oil. It has less than 500 miles since it was put back in. Should I have put new rings and rehoned the block? What can be done short of tearing it back apart and doing that?
I know this is pretty simple for this board, but I am looking for good advice, so this is the place.

Thanks,

Alan

As has been stated, you need to be sure it is not intake or guide related but my money is on the rings & bores.
My experience with rings is they are about broken in on the starter if the bores were done correctly.
How long was it driven with the worn lobes?
This material seems to have an affinity for the piston skirts & is extremely difficult to remove completely once it is part of the piston.
I would inspect the skirts very carefully with a magnifying glass to be sure there is no foreign material left in them.
It is not the best "break in compound" known to man.

For a street application I personally would not consider reusing the same rings and not at the least ball honing the cylinders before reassembly.

Ed-vancedEngines · Post by **Ed-vancedEngines** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 5:12 pm

Wow!

Racers finding new things all the time on these boards. I hope they can tell what is bad advice and what is good advice. Now this is starting to look like reading magazines.

That guy you are talking about in NY. Who is he? What is his nick? What board is he giving all of this wonderful advice on?

I am thinking that as a public service that maybe some of us should mosey on up to that My Board and kinda burst some of his bravado. I am not one normally to argue or to pubicly cause any problems for anyone. Shoot. I don't do it in person either. I try to help people. But if guys are hedding his advice he could be making them a lot of trouble.

There is always a newest trick of the wekk someone will come up with, especially about ring seal. The old Seal off all the water outlets and run hated water at 180 deg is one that keep resurfacing from time to time. Tried it, did it in the early 1970's and was sold on the logic and concept of it. Haven't done it in years and years and it makes no difference.

One thing that can not change theough is that materials do stretch and deform when pressure is applied. Torque Plate Honing will be still the thing to do after I am dead and gone. Rephrase this. Proper Torque Plate Honing with all block bolts torqued to spec to similuate an assembled engine while block is being honed by whatever honing method you use. For us poor-boys we will still use a Sunnen or Van Norman, or Kwik-Way or what ever is the best we can afford for a long time. But if the negine has any kind of good ring seal. I can promise that a nice thick Torque Plate was used in the final honing.

Another thing about ring seal. Don't oil up your rings before assembly.
Ed

Hardcore · Post by **Hardcore** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 5:23 pm

Due to the density of most aftermarket blocks, combined with the added wall and deck thickness, most of our blocks we deliver we have found
don't respond to a block plate with most standard measuring equipment. You will not be able to measure any bore distortion.

As bore size decreases, 4.250, that same distortion would be all but entirely eliminated. Even when using the max size, 4.625, there would be about a .300 thick wall remaining. It would be next to impossible for a .437 fastener to make a difference.

All our blocks, regardless, receive the plate/gasket combination.

Bill

Robert Kane · Post by **Robert Kane** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 5:33 pm

I still can't believe there are shops out ther not using at least plates, and calling themselves "professionals". Especially with all the trade publications and books that have been circulated. If you want some more humorous reading, click the links at the bottom of that page and read where they tell this guy that they don't use plates, except on less than 1% of the blocks they do. Jeez!, Or the ones telling him "they didn't have plates 40 years ago when the built the 350 Chevy"!! Or to use stacked up washers under they head bolts!!!!

Some guys will NEVER learn. Like they say...Never argue with a fool. People might not know the difference!
Robert

Ed-vancedEngines · Post by **Ed-vancedEngines** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 5:55 pm

Post removed by author. It will serve no good to anyone. My task is to forgive him and let that all by it's self be enough for me to put it behind me.

For most of you, you will not have any idea of what my ramblings here and now are about. Better for you.

Ed

johndougherty · Post by **johndougherty** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 9:55 pm

[quote=" Bill Mitchell Sr did contribute quite a lot of innovations into the Drag Racing Community, Was the Engine Brains behind the success of the Balwin Motion Cars, and to my knowledge was the originator of the terminology of "Mountain Motors". [/quote]

I thought Grumpy Jenkins had the first mountain motor.. calling it a "Carolina mountain motor" I think it was a 496 cu incher in his number VIII 70 Camaro. 9:20's with a T-10 and 12 bolt!

Ed-vancedEngines · Post by **Ed-vancedEngines** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 10:15 pm

I thought Grumpy Jenkins had the first mountain motor.. calling it a "Carolina mountain motor" I think it was a 496 cu incher in his number VIII 70 Camaro. 9:20's with a T-10 and 12 bolt!

I remember getting the 572 Cu in Mountain Motor rotating assemply. To my knowledge he was the first to do that or to sell them.

I am not disputing you nor arguing with you but I am kinda wondering why that Bill Jenkins would have called anything he built as Carolina. His shop was in Berwin Pa . (I think) His 1970 Slapper Bar Camaro was leased to Bruce Larsen and was run as the USA-1 car after he quit driving it and went to the SB 377 Vega built by SRD.

The name John Dougherty is very familiar to me as a respected name.
Ed

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Rings not seating?

Rings not seating?

Block Density