Junker engines punching above their weight

[KnightEngines]

She's chev deck height, but can be milled to stock holden height, accepts stock covers, pump etc
It's a true 'holden' block, not like the pig paw holden/chev hybrid.

Think of it like an Little M holden block.

[KnightEngines]

Thats good to know, I have the makings for a 331 SBC conventional 23 degree engine, all good stuff but mostly used leftovers.
Didn't GM's LS engine derive from their work with Holden?

If you stick an LS head next to a holden head you can see where GM got inspiration.

[crazyman]

My CFI is a def junker classifaction. It fly's away from an intersection with the 3.8 injectors and more PSI. I had to floor it Friday to get around a plow truck. It was pretty quick for a street stock, just with smaller injectors... The big TB should make it about the fastest CFI around, like that's a bragging right...

Oh, If I could afford to drop a 2bbl vacuum rule 650 horse motor in and tune around the ecu..

[Fatman]

Craig (TP) has just cast his 1st iron holden block, will go to 4.185" bore & take a 4" stroke, bit pricey tho, $6500 or so for a block, but that comes with 4 bolt caps on all 5, true priority mains oiling, roller ready lifter bores etc etc.
By the time you prep an OE block for severe use you're not far off that, so I guess expensive is relative.

For those that are interested this is a pair of holden heads I ported a while back, they went 307cfm:

How do you have almost $6500 into an OE block?

How did those heads perform?

[Cubic_Cleveland]

She's chev deck height, but can be milled to stock holden height, accepts stock covers, pump etc
It's a true 'holden' block, not like the pig paw holden/chev hybrid.

Think of it like an Little M holden block.

Sounds good! Never liked the Holden deck height much anyways, too short to put much stroke in with a decent length rod!

How do you have almost $6500 into an OE block?

It's quite easy. Four bolt conversion, 1/2 head bolt conversion, bush lifter bores, oil system improvements, darton sleeves in a filled block, plus the price of parts here and our high labour rate. Gets up there real quick.

[Momus]

I've always been intrigued with the Holden V8's, seems weird they would build their own engine when they had Chevy's available. Not bashing the Holden at all, it just seems like a big investment. How do you Australian guys rate the Holden V8's compared to a Chevy of the same approx. displacement? Were the Chevy engines more/less scarce compared to Holden's in your home market? Any links to Holden V8 sites where they discuss the Holden engine in detail??

Thanks
Randy

Just dyno'd another little holden engine, this one wasn't a junker, but was still pretty basic:

Stock crank, decent rods & slugs, SRP stuff etc - 4.03" bore, 3.025" stroke, 308 cubes.
Ported stock heads, 12:1 comp, 258/262 on 107 solid flat tappet, in on 104 ICL.
Single plane intake match ported only.
QF750 E85 carb.
Tri-Y headers with 2.25" collectors.

Running on E75 pump stuff.

Made 488hp @ 7000rpm, 410ft/lbs @ 5500rpm, over 400ft/lbs from 4000-6500rpm.

Basic little engine punching damn hard.

Necro hump on this. Holden V8's have the opposite bank offset to Chev for RH drive as well as sharing architecture with the successful pre existing 6 cylinder red motor. Tariffs on 60/70's Australia precluded effective importing.

[vortecpro]

Thought this topic may bring out a few cool stories.

A young guy I know will be building a 'nice' engine next year, but for now his car had an empty engine bay & he had an itch to go racing.
So he scratched around & turned up some bits to build a junker 304 holden:
Stock block with .040" over bores that were pretty sad
Stock crank
Stock rods
Set of beat up .040" slugs

We did a 'shut my eyes' hone on it & milled the block to zero deck, linished the crank & fitted the pistons to the rods.
He threw the short motor together unbalanced & threw in some ARP main studs (without a line hone).

I did a good valve job on the heads & used the factory valves (1.94 & 1.6), basic pocket port & milled for 12:1 comp.
It got a second hand 252/260 solid flat tappet cam & some basic second hand rollers.
Good single plane intake & 750 meth carb
Stock dissy hooked up to a crane Hi6 box

Second hand pipes, 1 5/8" primary tri-Y's with collector extensions

4500rpm converter, 3.7 diff gears & 26x8.5 slicks

It ran 11.63 @ 115mph at 3200lbs weight last weekend - untuned with only 26 deg timing & fat mixtures, also his 1st time ever racing & he only got 3 passes - the best pass (11.63) he floated the valves on the 1-2 change, then he got booted for running too quick - car needs a few things before he can race again.

It looks like the damn thing has a low 11 in it with some shorter gears & tuning, may even go a high 10 with a bit of a diet (plenty of weight he can pull out).

I thought that was a pretty dang good effort with a motor built from mostly stock junk.
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Its called a "slocker" mate.

[Krooser]

I'm having blast re-reading all these posts...brings back so many memories when we could spend $500 and race like it was $50,000...

[vds]

Tony, what would you recommend for a cam to go in a 308 engine in an old HZ ute that I'm piecing together ?
It will be 4.030" bore, with an iron 3.48 COME crank, some 6" rods, around 10.5:1 comp, the HZ heads with some L34
size valves(they have been ground on some, but haven't been flowed) a Torker manifold, (could go to performer if
that would be better)probably the QJet and 4-2-1 exhaust. 4L60 transmission with about 3000 stall converter
Mostly for street use, but maybe a run down the strip now and then Hydraulic or solid flat tappet ? Thanks

[midnightbluS10]

I loved those days. I've also seen things done that worked that you would never think of unless your broke. Engines put together with NO gaskets, milling heads with a hand grinder and a file, I actually saw a guy bore a hole onetime in a block with a homemade extension on an angle grinder and sized a few grinding wheels to size to put in one .030 piston in a stock 350 block. Ran pretty damn good after the nerf ball/220 grit sandpaper hone job too.

I ran around with some real broke back yarders with skills. They had a knack for making shit work with nothing.

Doesn't what they were working on played part. I have a hard time believing the factory engines built today could be rebuild on the cheap-homemade boring jobs, no gaskets. Well there is Right Stuff.

The old engines were cast of better iron, were over designed for its HP ratings. They could withstand more abuse right from the start. Today we deal with aluminum heads, plastic intakes, many times more stroke. Big bore, short stroke engines are a thing of the past. Those engines could stand the abuse of out of balance assembly.

Todays engines also have it easier with OD trans, 3,000 rpm on long distance highway driving was once normal, today engines turn under 2,000 rpm on long drives. Yes todays engines last for 150,000-200,000 miles but I still feel the older engines were built better right from the start.

LOL, there's a bunch of new engines going together with fewer and fewer gaskets nowadays right from the factory.
The old engines may have been made of cast iron, but they in no way were built with better material, and the designs didn't help.
Short strokes are thing of the past simply because the rotating assemblies built today can handle the stresses of the rpm with the longer strokes, with heads able to support the required air demand of the larger displacement/rpm at the same time.
As for the rpm/od deal - so when the main bearings started to show wear when o/d showed up, thats because it was easier on the engines, right?
Now i do agree that today's engines won't take the same crap "machine work", nothing high performance will. Its the cost of power, you can't ignore the tolerances.

If you think the older engines were built better you must be living in a delusional bubble.

As an addition to this thread - junkyard 4.8's/5.3's that have been turbo'd. So many of them are putting out good power simply b/c no-ones scared to turn up the boost a little, and they hold together for the most part while being CHEAP.

I highly doubt a block from 1967 is made of better iron than something from 2017. Where you hear this? Kinda like people thinking old cars are made better than new cars. I'll take a new car over an old car in a crash every time. Because they old cars are not made better. And I bet those blocks aren't either.

[midnightbluS10]

Just like the "high nickel 010/020 block myth". People swore for years those blocks were better and that 010/020 referred to nickel content and this and that. But it didn't. Those blocks were nothing special. Yet, for decades, even the most intelligent racers spread that shit around. Doubt those are better than anything available today.

Thats good to know, I have the makings for a 331 SBC conventional 23 degree engine, all good stuff but mostly used leftovers.
Didn't GM's LS engine derive from their work with Holden?

If you stick an LS head next to a holden head you can see where GM got inspiration.

According to the ford guys, the LS is a copy of Ford technology lol. But then, they seem to think Ford was invented by God himself, so...

[rfoll]

If ford had the plans to build something akin to a Gm LS, why would they build a 281 cid engine the size of a Chrysler Hemi?

[Frankshaft]

I like these types of builds too. " I have these rods I got from my brother in law, I have these pistons I bought on craigslist, I some heads off my old engine, I got this intake from the swap meet, etc etc. The reason they are fun, is, usually, there is no expectations. It makes what it makes. And when they run hard, its even sweeter because you have no money in it comparably. The 632's with spread port heads, 55 mm cams, custom carbs, etc etc, are more stressful. There is ALWAYS an expectation, and, the cost involved, it BETTER meet expectations. The junker engines, if you think it should/could make 500, and it makes 530, it makes it that much better. And, if it blows up, oh well. It was fun while it lasted. The high end builds you sweat bullets.

[Steve.k]

If ford had the plans to build something akin to a Gm LS, why would they build a 281 cid engine the size of a Chrysler Hemi?

Could've been other way around?http://www.network54.com/Forum/119419/m ... +Expose%27

[PackardV8]

Analyze any two post-WWII US OHV pushrod V8s and there will be some common design elements.

1. There are only so many possible ways to make an ICE in that configuration.
2. All manufacturers disassemble and dissect the competition. They steal what works well and/or lowers cost.
3. Engineers move from one corporation to another.
4. They are proud of their accomplishments and detail them in SAE papers.
5. The higher the specific output, the more the Ford, GM, et al, pushrod V8s resemble each other. As a noted TransAm engine builder once said, "The race engine doesn't know whose name was on the rocker cover; it only knows how many zeros are on the contract."
6. The manufacturers know the great unwashed buying public has no idea what is going on inside an engine at the design level. They rely on the marketing and advertising departments to obscure everything except image. How many Lexus are sold because they have an all-aluminum 4-cam V8? Except most never did and don't anyway.