Anyone use Dynomation-5?

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

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user-9274568

Re: Anyone use Dynomation-5?

Post by user-9274568 »

Daniel Jones wrote:> Is there a way to enter the .050 cam numbers and have it figure advertised, or vise versa?

From the left hand side simulation window, at the bottom of the camshaft section, there is a "STS" button on the right hand side. That extrapolates seat-to-seat timing from 0.050" timing. I've not used it before but just tried it and it wasn't that good of a match on a cam that I knew both the seat and 0.050" timing. Not sure how the lifter acceleration rate figures in but it appeared to change it instead of using it. When I don't know the seat timing, I'll generally find a cam in the .CAM library (or in cam company lobe catalog) that is in the ballpark and start from there.

Dan Jones

So how do you go about matching your timing points to an actual lobe?

Do you just call a cam company and say here is where I want it to open/close? Or do you just find an existing lobe close to your liking?
SchmidtMotorWorks
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Re: Anyone use Dynomation-5?

Post by SchmidtMotorWorks »

Just guessing but I think DM takes the head flow numbers and adjusts them in the simulation based on the manifold type you choose.

I like DM because it is fast and has the iteration capability, it is quick and easy to find relationships between parameters.

When you need to get that last few % though and suspect the exhaust side simulation is not matching reality close enough, it is time to move up to EngMod4T. It takes some additional effort to learn and the processing takes longer but if things like firing order, and differing length ducts matter to you, then that is the step you have to take.

http://www.vannik.co.za/EngMod4T.htm

The author Vannik reads and posts in Advanced sometimes.
Helping to Deliver the Promise of Flying Cars
Daniel Jones
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Re: Anyone use Dynomation-5?

Post by Daniel Jones »

> Or do you just find an existing lobe close to your liking?

I usually run the optimization then cross the resulting intake and exhaust lobes against a lobe catalog like this one for Bullet's hydraulic roller lobes:

http://www.bulletcams.com/Masters/HRlobes.htm

I pick the lobe type first (torque or RPM/high rocker ratio, etc.) and then choose several intake and exhaust lobes in the general vicinity of what the cam optimization returns and run all combinations of those intake and exhaust lobes. I'll pick the best lobes then vary the LSA and ICL to see what effect that has before finalizing the cam specs. One thing I've noticed is that when doing th optimization for maximum HP area under the RPM curve, Dynomation often returns cams with 8 to 12 degrees more exhaust duration. Narrowing that to 4 to 6 degrees generally has little effect on the average HP.

Dan Jones
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Re: Anyone use Dynomation-5?

Post by mk e »

Disclaimer - I think this is my first post here so......

I started a build (that 7 years later is still not done :( - but it has been a massive amount of work) and got a copy of dynomation 5 to help.....and I like it over all. I've modeled about a dozen engines for friends, about 1/2 of which have hit the dyno and the sim has hit the final numbers within about 2%. Not bad....but there is definitely an art to getting good numbers out of it.

The way I use it is to to a quick and dirty sim using the FE model to base line everything. On some engines, like the 70s. 80s ferraris I play with, the final number I trust is from the FE model because the wave model simply doesn't work well on them and comes up with a pretty low number. It does get changes right so it helps with the tuning stuff and once I rework the heads the wave model does get close. The best I can tell the intake system/shape just doesn't match the assumptions the wave model is based on well enough.

As some one else said it seems to want the bare head flow number and then applies a correction for the type of intake fitted. The ITB selection seems to pretty much use the flow data as-is and I have tried using the full intake system data then selecting ITB and it seems to be about right but I've only seen dyno data on a couple so....maybe yes maybe no I guess.

Also as already pointed out, the way it does the headers seems a bit sketchy and I really don't trust it for that work. It has not way to account for firing order, tri-Y designs, cross or x pipes, it just seems to assume only the pulses from the active cylinder matter. If custom headers are in the plan I just call Burns and have them design something then plug that design into dynomation and don't touch it. I have pipe max too and it's helpful but the couple designs Burns has done for me have worked better in dynomation than what pipe max spit out.

The last think I go by is whether the wave prediction in soundly beating the FE prediction of not. The FE is a simple pumping model so the "tuned" wave model should beat it and if it's not I assume the tuning still needs help. Normally when I'm done virtual tuning the wave is a solid 10% above the FE. On my never ending project engine the FE says 777, the wave says 949, so the wave is up 22%. The Hybrid spits out 897 but the curve look just flat wrong up near the hp peak.....the way it combined the curves doesn't seem to handle big differences in the FE/Wave numbers very well do I don't use it.

A buddy of mine has a H-D shop....dynomation gets his engines pretty wrong. The FE is WAY low and the wave needs the cams in at 110/110 to get close to whatever his actual cam timing makes so the cam timing function is useless on his engines. Another buddy who does a lot of US pushrod car engines gave me the heads up on the "just set the cams to 110/110 then fix them on the dyno" answer. Thats a fine answer when you have 2 headhead cams per bank and can set them anyway you please on the dyno.....but not so fine an answer when you have to move intake and exhaust together or have a new cam ground. No idea why...pushrod flex is all I can think but I have no real idea.

Another heads up is actual measured cam profiles are the preferred way to input cam options. The 10-point system dynomation uses to estimate sort of works for a baseline, but the output of measured and estimated can be quite different. On my engine the measured cam data get me the 949 number, if I click the "convert to 10 point" buttons the output drops to 907, nearly a 5% difference in the peak and the shapes. If I roll the lobe centers around I can get back to 925....but then whats the right baseline 102/110 the measured cam wants or the 111/115 the 10pnt version wants....hmmmmm.

I've found it's quite addicting and has cost me years trying to actually build the parts dynomation likes.
Mark
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