Comp Cams Elite rollers bfor the street??
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Comp Cams Elite rollers bfor the street??
I just lost a lobe on my CC roller cam,and the side of the lifter snaped off...I am looking at the new Elite's for my Blown SBC-400 road car..Anyone using them?? Oldhead
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Re: Comp Cams Elite rollers bfor the street??
I have used them in all of my serious race engines without any problems.Most guys do not like the high price.
JOE SHERMAN RACING
JOE SHERMAN RACING
Re: Comp Cams Elite rollers bfor the street??
Why not use a set of Morels/Crowers/Iskys?
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Re: Comp Cams Elite rollers bfor the street??
From what I've seen, those lifters only come with needles and are not available with bushings instead. If that is in fact the case, do yourself a favor and opt for another lifter that is available with bushings instead of needles. Most Lifter Companies now offer lifters with a bushing option. So, they are easy to come by. You may get by with needle type lifters, or they may end up destroying your engine when they fail. Bushing type lifters have a much higher load carrying capacity, are far more durable, and are the only sensible way to go. There is no longer any reason to ever use a needle type solid roller lifter. Running needle type solid roller lifters is simply playing Russian Roulette with your engine for no good reason. Maybe you'll be lucky, maybe you won't. Either way, it is of course your call.bob1000hp wrote:I just lost a lobe on my CC roller cam,and the side of the lifter snaped off...I am looking at the new Elite's for my Blown SBC-400 road car..Anyone using them?? Oldhead
But, if you are interested in more detail on the subject (the below write-up is about BBC's in particular, but it applies to any engine), read on:
Discussions about running solid roller lifters in BBC’s, can be a hotly debated topic. The debate breaks down into two sides. On one side is the traditional needle type solid roller lifter and on the other side is the newer and much higher load rated bushing type solid roller lifter.
The purpose of the following write-up is only to share the findings that came out of my “root cause failure analysis” investigation into needle bearing failures in solid roller lifters. By sharing the results of my investigation, I it can help fellow Hotrodders and Racers make a more informed buying decision. I feel that everyone deserves to know the truth about what’s been going on, and how the two types of lifters compare.
Personally, I do not sell lifters, nor do I work for a company that does. So I have no stake in what particular brands or models of lifters are good, bad or questionable. Therefore, I have no stake in what lifters are purchased either. I also don’t care what parts other people run in their motors. That’s up to them. The info I provide here is not based on emotion or personal preference. It is simply based on the Engineering facts, and followed up with my thoughts based on those facts. That’s it, nothing more.
It is not exactly clear how high the failure percentage is with the needle type solid roller lifters. But these failures have been a significant issue for BBC's, for some years now, and are still happening. Over the last several years, most of my BBC friends, buddies and acquaintances, as well as numerous participants from various Hotrod and Racing Forums, have experienced premature needle type solid roller lifter failures, associated with the needles, axles and/or roller wheels.
The engine damage has ranged from just the lifters themselves, all the way to major engine destruction, requiring a total rebuild. This is not something new. Among the people I know who’ve experienced premature failures, it spreads from California to Nova Scotia, and from mild to wild engines. There is certainly more of a potential for these needle type lifters to fail, than there is with any other component inside a BBC. Whatever the true failure percentage is, it is way too high to simply ignore altogether. So, it would be wise to at least take that into consideration when it comes time to purchase a set of solid roller lifters.
Comp Cams has said that the life expectancy of their ENDURE-X “needle type” solid roller lifter in street driven BBC’s is ONLY 2,000 MILES!!! And those lifters are pressure fed, come with precision sorted needles, and have wear resistant tool steel axles. And in Isky’s ads for their “bushing type” EZ-Roll solid roller lifters, they say that with these lifters, you’ll never worry about needle bearing overload or premature roller bearing failure again, because they provide 350% higher load rating than comparable needle type solid roller lifters. And now many other Companies are following Isky into the bushing type solid roller lifter market. So, all of these lifter manufacturers certainly recognize the fact that needle type solid roller lifters have some serious durability/longevity short comings.
While solid roller setups do make the most power, they can also decrease the valve train’s life expectancy, compared to what you would generally expect from other types of lifters. Failures of needle type pressure fed solid roller lifters as early as 3,000 to 5,000 miles, or even earlier with street driven BBC Hotrods is not that uncommon. Even the highly regarded Morel needle type solid rollers that they supply to Lunati, have failed at about 5,000 miles in an 850 HP BBC Street/Strip Hotrod. So, there is nothing magical about those particular lifters either.
However, one of the earliest and nastiest failures that I am aware of, was from a set of Isky Redzone needle type lifters that suffered needle/axle failure at only 1,500 miles in another Street/Strip BBC Hotrod, and wiped out the whole engine. But the single “earliest” failure that I’m aware of was from a set of Isky Redzones needle type lifters that suffered needle/axle failure at only 1,200 miles in a mild BBC Street Hotrod.
But some folks think that if they choose the right oil, they can keep their pressure fed solid roller lifters in good shape. But the fact is, that no matter what oil you run, even all the way up to high zinc/phos Racing Oils that cost around $20 per quart, your pressure fed solid roller lifters can still fail at a time/mileage that most of us would consider premature. So, even if you use the best oil money can buy, it cannot save you. That's because these lifters typically do NOT suffer from oil related failures (more on that below).
Of course there are some who maintain that pressure fed solid roller lifters don’t experience premature failure, with their owners wondering what all the fuss is about. But reasonable longevity, as a good number of people have found out the hard way, is not guaranteed. Having these lifters reach an acceptable life span, can be just the luck of the draw and not something that you can bet your engine on.
And no matter how well built your engine is. No matter how much valve spring pressure you have. No matter how good your rocker geometry is. No matter what brand of lifter you have. No matter how often you change your oil. No matter what lifter to bore clearance you run (more on that below). At the end of the day, there are only two kinds of pressure fed needle type solid roller lifter users. Those who have had premature failures and those who are vulnerable to premature failures. These lifters are absolutely NOT bullet proof. In fact they are essentially a ticking time bomb waiting to go off, as you will see below.
When I first looked into this issue, the needle type solid roller lifter failures were a very often discussed problem, and no one ever made any attempt to determine what the root cause of the failure was. So, I decided to look into it myself for my own reason. And that reason was that I was building a Street/Strip 540 BBC for myself, and I did not want the engine destroyed by failed needle lifters.
So, I decided to perform a root cause failure analysis, in order to get to the bottom of this all too common premature failure issue. While it is difficult to accurately say just what the failure percentages are, I at least wanted to inspect failed examples and determine why those that had failed, did fail. To that end, I collected a few sets (I would have liked a much larger sampling, but these were the only examples I could get my hands on at the time) of FAILED standard diameter .842" BBC pressure fed, needle type solid roller lifters. These failed lifters were different name brands, and had used different name brands and viscosities of high zinc/phos oils. And they were from different performance level engines, ranging from relatively MILD to relatively WILD.
FACTS FROM THE INVESTIGATION:
The engines’ specs are:
*** 408ci BBC, 243*/249* duration at .050, .663"/.655" valve lift, .024/.026 hot lash, 210 lbs on the seat valve spring pressure, 567 lbs on the nose valve spring pressure, 15W40 Chevron Delo motor oil, Isky Redzone lifters, 6300 max rpm. These failed at about 3,000 nearly all street miles. This is a relatively mild BBC Hotrod, so failures are certainly NOT limited to only super High Performance motors.
*** 540ci BBC, 266*/272* duration at .050, .678"/.688" valve lift, .016 hot lash, 260 lbs on the seat valve spring pressure, 650 lbs on the nose valve spring pressure, 20W50 Redline motor oil, Crower HIPPO lifters. These started to fail at about 5,000 nearly all street miles. This is a stout Street/Strip BBC Hotrod.
*** 632ci BBC, 277*/292* duration at .050, .848"/.824" valve lift, .026/.028 hot lash, 325 lbs on the seat valve spring pressure, 875 lbs on the nose valve spring pressure, 20W50 Mobil 1, Redline, and Royal Purple XPR Racing Oil, Crower HIPPO lifters, 7200 max rpm. These failed after 1 1/2 years. Mileage and driving style not documented. This is an example of a BBC Race motor.
Careful root cause failure analysis revealed that oiling had played no part what so ever in these failures, but they all had suffered needle/axle failure due to the EXACT SAME root cause – METAL SURFACE FATIGUE FAILURE. This is exhibited by extensive flaking and pitting of the metal’s surface, which is called Spalling. With loose flakes floating around, and the surface no longer smooth and round, the needles can stop rolling and start sliding, thus forming flat spots, which just speeds up the failure process all the more.
This metal fatigue failure comes from excessive loading in general, and from excessive shock loading/hammering in particular. These lifters are way too small for the loads they typically see. And as such, they are a poor design for this application, when it comes to any certainty of a long life. So, it really is not surprising that they are susceptible to failure. After all, jack hammering is designed to destroy things.
And if that isn’t bad enough, I also found that only the 3 bottom needles are in “load-bearing” contact when the lifter is loaded down. On top of that, the needles only make a “line contact”, which means extremely high localized pressure on the needles themselves, as well as on the axle and on the roller ID. And not only had the needles/axles failed, as is normally the case, but the roller OD's, which are also subject to metal surface fatigue failure, had also failed or were starting to fail, depending on the particular set in question. And the larger the lash had been, the worse the lifters had failed.
As for lifter to bore clearance: The smaller the clearance, the less the lifters can tilt to the side, and the more the load is evenly applied across the whole length of the needles, axle and roller wheel, which can help postpone lifter failure a little. And the larger the clearance, the more the lifter can be severely loaded on only one end of the needles, axle and roller wheel, due to lifter sideways tipping. And that just makes this whole problem go from bad to worse, thus accelerating the failure. So, for that reason, I’d recommend not exceeding .0015” lifter to bore clearance with .842” lifters.
Keep in mind that for iron and steel, the coefficient of thermal expansion is essentially identical. What that means is that the lifter to lifter bore clearance will stay virtually the same from cold to hot engine temps. Therefore, that max recommended clearance of .0015” is more than enough. Remember the rule of thumb for iron/steel parts is, .001” clearance for every 1.0” of diameter. So, by that rule, .842” lifters really only need .000842” inches of clearance, which means that .0015” clearance is nearly twice what they actually NEED. Any more clearance than that, and you are only making things worse for the lifters.
Spintron testing has shown that the lifters can bounce up and down on the cam's base circle, within their lash slop. So, the larger the lash, the more severe the shock loading/hammering can be, even with proper spring pressures. Because the lifter isn't always going to be in a position to follow the lobe’s clearance ramp as intended, but instead it will hit hard somewhere on that ramp. So all the effort the cam designer put into designing that clearance ramp, will have no effect at all on how hard the lifter hits, at the point of actual contact.
And of course if an engine isn’t built right, and the spring pressures aren’t high enough, Spintron testing has also shown that in this case, the lifters can even bounce the valves up and down off their seats as well. This obviously just makes things go from bad to worse.
So, no matter what Super Duper brand or model of lifter you run, due to this repeated shock loading/hammering, you can still end up with prematurely failed pressure fed needle type solid roller lifters.
After I determined the root cause of these failed lifters, I pulled a brand new set of Crower Severe Duty needle type HIPPO lifters out of my 540ci BBC and put in a set of Isky bushing type EZX's (a particular version of the EZ-Roll design).
The EZX’s bushings spread the load way out across the axle’s surface, thus greatly reducing the localized pressure between them. As Isky has stated, they have a 350% higher load rating than needle type solid roller lifters. However, even this bushing type of lifter is still subject to roller OD surface fatigue failure, but at least the highly vulnerable needles are gone.
SUMMARY/SUGGESTIONS:
1. The overall big picture failure percentage is still unclear, but to be on the safe side, I recommend NOT running needle type solid roller lifters, no matter what brand, no matter how expensive they might be, and no matter what their marketing hype says. Because the needles and their axles are by far the most vulnerable to premature metal surface fatigue failure, even if they have high pressure pin oiling.
Failures with these needle type lifters can include the lifters themselves, the cam, and the block’s lifter bores. And in the worst case, which is not that unusual, they can wipe out the whole engine, requiring a total rebuild. If you do choose to run needle type solid roller lifters anyway, rather than upgrading to the much higher load rated bushing type, you may well be playing Russian Roulette with your engine. And you’d need to ask yourself, is it REALLY worth risking potential engine destruction, when a far superior, much more durable alternative is readily available?
Clearly the best plan to try and avoid the potential for failure, is to upgrade to the “non-needle” bushing type pressure fed solid roller lifters, which have a much, much higher load rating. Although there are now a number of different bushing lifters on the market, one of the most popular lifter of this kind, is the Isky EZX bushing type solid roller lifter. While there is no such thing as a bulletproof solid roller lifter, these lifters are about as close as you will get.
2. Try not to exceed .0015” lifter to bore clearance with .842” lifters. The smaller the clearance, the more the load is spread out and evenly applied across the whole axle, bushing/needles and roller wheel, which can help postpone lifter failure a little. And the larger the clearance, the more the load can be applied to only one end of the axle, bushing/needles and roller wheel, due to lifter sideways tipping, which can drive up localized loading and increase the likelihood of failure.
3. Run the smallest amount of lash that you can live with. Because reduced lash will allow less clearance slop for the lifter to bounce around in. And not being so far out of position on the lobe’s ramp, can help to somewhat reduce the shock loading/bouncing/hammering that the lifters will see, no matter how well that cam lobe ramp is designed.
4. Since you cannot escape metal fatigue failure, it is best to try and replace/rebuild the lifters at frequent enough intervals to head off failure before it catches up with you. But failure intervals are unpredictable and can vary widely, which makes it very difficult to decide on a maximum interval to follow. The most common failure interval that I’m aware of, not limited just to those I personally inspected, seems to be between 3,000 and 5,000 miles, though it’s not that unusual for them to fail much sooner than that, as mentioned above. With that being the case, personally I’d never exceed 5,000 miles, as a rebuild/replace max limit.
All you can really do is use your best judgement here. I recommend being on the conservative side, because the engine you might save will be your own. But at least with bushing type solid roller lifters, all we have to be on the lookout for is roller wheel OD surface fatigue failure, since they don’t use the “vulnerable to failure” needles.
5. You could also “consider” running a rev kit, if that is reasonable for your application. It “may” help a little by keeping the lifter in contact with the lobe. But engines equipped with rev kits, that were still running the normally “called for” loose lash, have still suffered premature pressure fed needle type solid roller lifter failures. Even though a rev kit will keep the solid roller lifter in contact with the lobe, base circle and ramps, you still most likely are running the recommended sloppy loose lash. All that slop didn't just magically go away because the lifter stays in contact with the cam. It still has to be taken up somewhere, and that somewhere is taken up with hammer blows to the pushrod/rocker arm, when the lifter smacks into pushrod, and/or when the pushrod smacks into the rocker. And all that shock loading gets reacted at the roller/axle/needle interface with the lobe. So, rev kits don’t really seem to help all that much.
6. Don’t lose any sleep over what oil brand or viscosity to run, how often to change it, or whether or not it has high or low levels of zinc/phos, because it won’t make any difference when it comes to metal fatigue failure. Just use your favorite oil and change it at your normal interval. Though running a high quality oil with excellent film strength is always a good choice in general.
7. Beyond what is mentioned above, all you can really do is just keep a close eye out for any unusual changes in lash, to try and catch a failure in its early stages, before too much damage is done.
Only “hydraulic” roller setups, that don't have such radical lobes, don't have such high spring pressures, don’t see such high rpm, and have no lash, thus no bouncing/hammering/shock loading, seem to have an acceptable record of a good life expectancy on the street, in most cases. So, these are the lifters that really “should” be used in street driven Hotrods.
But of course a lot of us choose to run solid roller lifters on the street anyway, for the performance capability they provide. But truth be told, this type of lifter is really only intended for race engines. So, we have to deal with their shortcomings when they are used in street driven Hotrods, which is not really the correct application. Because of course, street driven Hotrods see way more time/mileage/jack hammer pounding cycles than race engines ever will.
BOTTOM LINE: Solid roller lifters are very high maintenance parts when run on the street. And to be on the safe side, they will need to be rebuilt/replaced at frequent intervals, when used in that manner. They are probably the weakest link in most street driven BBC engines. And just installing them and forgetting them, can be very risky.
We have generally pushed this nearly 60 year old basic pushrod engine design about as far as we can. And to totally eliminate the potential for lifter failure, we’d need to upgrade to a more modern overhead cam design. But for those of us who still choose to run our beloved traditional BBC’s, we’ll just have to deal with this potential problem as best we can. That’s the price we pay for power.
Everyone will have to make their own decision about what lifter type they choose to run. But you’ll find the much higher load rated, bushing type Isky EZX solid roller lifters, with a much higher margin of safety, in my 540 BBC.
Re: Comp Cams Elite rollers bfor the street??
Gotta love cut and paste...
Lykins Motorsports
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
Custom Ford Windsor, Cleveland, and FE Street/Race Engines
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
Custom Ford Windsor, Cleveland, and FE Street/Race Engines
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Re: Comp Cams Elite rollers bfor the street??
what would be the advantage on the street of a solid roller with a closed exhaust system ???
Re: Comp Cams Elite rollers bfor the street??
Thanks for the concise tips on the oil 540
lots of food for thought
thanks
lots of food for thought
thanks
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Re: Comp Cams Elite rollers bfor the street??
I went with the Morel bushing lifters. Not cheap but I consider it added insurance on the street. Morel invented the bushing lifter and they have very precise lifter diameter. I got mine from Straub.
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Re: Comp Cams Elite rollers bfor the street??
Cut and paste may be a wonderful thing,but there is a kernel of truth in what he cited.
The Nazis didn't lose WWII,they just changed uniforms.Now they run the place.
Re: Comp Cams Elite rollers bfor the street??
TO 540 RAT:I uesd Comp Cams (Not pressure fed) From 2002 to about 2009...I th ink more them 10.000 miles and alot of runs.Still have them in a box...#210 on the seat,near 600 open...Lots of idle time...Have you checked Elites??? Oldhead
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Re: Comp Cams Elite rollers bfor the street??
540 Rat,
You stated "one of the most popular lifter of this kind, is the Isky EZX bushing type solid roller lifter. While there is no such thing as a bulletproof solid roller lifter, these lifters are about as close as you will get."
In your article you make no mention of roller crowning. I am nowhere near engineer status but have been dealing with a cam/lifter failure on a SBC (712 open & 1.7 RR). After spending untold hours reading SAE tech papers, one thing becomes apparent. The roller must be crowned to deal with the Hertzian forces. The majority of the literature deals with catastrophic lifter roller and cam failures in diesels but I feel would apply to gas pots as well because the cam and lifter don't know what flavor their working in. The roller trail in the lobe is the same width from clearance ramp over the nose and back down. As the pattern makes its way up the lobe, edge loading starts. I put the loading down to a non-crowned roller. Sure enough I checked a couple of rollers that were not destroyed and they were not crowned. They were the Endurance Plus variety.
We upgraded to .937 EZ-Max Isky's but was a little taken aback when we got them. They state 3-point oiling (extra oil over the nose) and it is only 2-point. Talked with Isky and they said no one crowns the rollers anymore. Did someone reinvent Contact Mechanics theory? They state they do crown them right in the catalog in the article on cam walk.
I pulled a set of Lunati lifters (Morel) and checked them - crowned, check a GM and FORD OE replacement Melling roller - crowned. Spoke with Crane who did up our new cam - they crown theirs. BTW Crane was playing with bush style rollers (Silicon Nitride) in the late 80's but couldn't justify the cost at the time.
Any comment?
Did a fast search here and couldn't find any discussion on roller crowning, although lots on FT apps.
You stated "one of the most popular lifter of this kind, is the Isky EZX bushing type solid roller lifter. While there is no such thing as a bulletproof solid roller lifter, these lifters are about as close as you will get."
In your article you make no mention of roller crowning. I am nowhere near engineer status but have been dealing with a cam/lifter failure on a SBC (712 open & 1.7 RR). After spending untold hours reading SAE tech papers, one thing becomes apparent. The roller must be crowned to deal with the Hertzian forces. The majority of the literature deals with catastrophic lifter roller and cam failures in diesels but I feel would apply to gas pots as well because the cam and lifter don't know what flavor their working in. The roller trail in the lobe is the same width from clearance ramp over the nose and back down. As the pattern makes its way up the lobe, edge loading starts. I put the loading down to a non-crowned roller. Sure enough I checked a couple of rollers that were not destroyed and they were not crowned. They were the Endurance Plus variety.
We upgraded to .937 EZ-Max Isky's but was a little taken aback when we got them. They state 3-point oiling (extra oil over the nose) and it is only 2-point. Talked with Isky and they said no one crowns the rollers anymore. Did someone reinvent Contact Mechanics theory? They state they do crown them right in the catalog in the article on cam walk.
I pulled a set of Lunati lifters (Morel) and checked them - crowned, check a GM and FORD OE replacement Melling roller - crowned. Spoke with Crane who did up our new cam - they crown theirs. BTW Crane was playing with bush style rollers (Silicon Nitride) in the late 80's but couldn't justify the cost at the time.
Any comment?
Did a fast search here and couldn't find any discussion on roller crowning, although lots on FT apps.
Re: Comp Cams Elite rollers bfor the street??
I have always thought that the roller and the roller cam lobe should be slightly crowned
To account for lifter and or camshaft tilt in the block.
Endurance solid roller cams designed for very tight valve lash and gentil easy ramps.
To account for lifter and or camshaft tilt in the block.
Endurance solid roller cams designed for very tight valve lash and gentil easy ramps.
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Re: Comp Cams Elite rollers bfor the street??
Any of my street builds get the Morel .904 lifters with .0014 to .0019 clearance so far no problems!!!
Problem with Comp elite lifters they are to small for a GM lifter bores just measure them and see what your clearance will be!!!!!!
Problem with Comp elite lifters they are to small for a GM lifter bores just measure them and see what your clearance will be!!!!!!
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Re: Comp Cams Elite rollers bfor the street??
Isn't the Elite lifters nowavailable w/ bushings? Seem to remember cruising around cc's pages earlier this year. But i might be wrong....
Figure there's hold in Rats article. Pinned bearing rollers may last for long time, as for Oldhead, myself& others, or the may fail early on. Bit of a "bingo" it seems. My stuff have kept up so far.
Figure there's hold in Rats article. Pinned bearing rollers may last for long time, as for Oldhead, myself& others, or the may fail early on. Bit of a "bingo" it seems. My stuff have kept up so far.
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