vortec, perimeter valve cover bolts ?
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vortec, perimeter valve cover bolts ?
did gm put a vortec head on a vehicle with perimeter valve cover bolts ? I know the bowtie aftermarket heads have center and perimeter bolt pattern but did any oem factory vehicle have them ?
Re: vortec, perimeter valve cover bolts ?
Technically, yes, though I'm guessing you are wondering sbc, in which case no.
Other vortec engines with perimeter valve cover bolts are:
Vortec 8100
Vortec Atlas series inlines (2800,2900,3500,3700,4200)
S10 vortec 2200
None of which are helpful...
Other vortec engines with perimeter valve cover bolts are:
Vortec 8100
Vortec Atlas series inlines (2800,2900,3500,3700,4200)
S10 vortec 2200
None of which are helpful...
Re: vortec, perimeter valve cover bolts ?
yes sbc, class racing to help id oem headsRizzle wrote:Technically, yes, though I'm guessing you are wondering sbc, in which case no.
Other vortec engines with perimeter valve cover bolts are:
Vortec 8100
Vortec Atlas series inlines (2800,2900,3500,3700,4200)
S10 vortec 2200
None of which are helpful...
Re: vortec, perimeter valve cover bolts ?
If you are referring to 906 or 062 vortec heads they were, to the best of my knowledge, only released with center bolt valve covers. Some of the later ls1 motors had perimeter bolt.
I was no longer driving the car consciously. I was driving it by a kind of instinct, only I was in a different dimension.
West Siloam Dispensary
West Siloam Dispensary
Re: vortec, perimeter valve cover bolts ?
What are the actual rules pertaining to the heads???
The 305 - 450 casting is decent for compression as it is a small chamber with a decent port, but for stock later model chevy heads I think the 487x is still the one to go with if the earlier model 186's are not legal.
I think our best legal smog head 358" Engine with a 500-2bbl was about 425-450HP with some hydraulic cam and lifter work, good springs and loaded up fuel. Had to pump 180# on compression tester.
If you need any heads flow tested, I run my flow bench almost every day and 99% of what I test for folks are Limited Engine Heads & Intakes. I have some really nice Serdi Cutters to get a super nice multiple angle valve job on stock seats as well as a couple tricks to help those heads move about 20 more cfm's and still tech legal, no porting or blasting or none of that, just been working on those style heads for 25 years and have a good handle on what it takes in a 45* Valve Job to get them moving air. I have 5 cutters I use on the intake and 4 on the exhaust and then they really pull extra air in the .100"-.300" range which really boosts the air up higher. The flow numbers may not be super big but they are going up 2-3 cfms every .050" and that keeps the intake port from stalling out.
Most folks don't pay much attention to the small stuff but you also have to get the height perspective of the intake to the exhaust just right to keep the exhaust port from killing off the intake during the TDC overlap.
On any heads that we replace guides and seats on we always try and position both the intake and exhaust in a better location as to improve airflow and still keeping close to the stock guide centerlines. All in all that little stuff adds up to an additional +20-25 HP on top of the 20-25HP you pick up from the valve job. On my bench ( @ 25" Depression ) we need to pick up 25 cfm and that translates to about 50HP on the engine dyno. On most heads you can pick up 5-10 cfm just switching from 4" bore column to 4.060" and then offsetting the intake valve away from the bore another .020"-.030" gains you another 5 cfms. If you know what you are doing you can drop the valve size slightly like 2.02 to 2" and pick up another 5 cfm if you pick the right valve head shape.
How do you learn this stuff, you have heads laying around and 20 different valves and you figure out what heads like what valves by trial and error and moving the head around on the flow fixture as well as playing with seat heights and locations.
Mark@AlienChassisDYno.com
The 305 - 450 casting is decent for compression as it is a small chamber with a decent port, but for stock later model chevy heads I think the 487x is still the one to go with if the earlier model 186's are not legal.
I think our best legal smog head 358" Engine with a 500-2bbl was about 425-450HP with some hydraulic cam and lifter work, good springs and loaded up fuel. Had to pump 180# on compression tester.
If you need any heads flow tested, I run my flow bench almost every day and 99% of what I test for folks are Limited Engine Heads & Intakes. I have some really nice Serdi Cutters to get a super nice multiple angle valve job on stock seats as well as a couple tricks to help those heads move about 20 more cfm's and still tech legal, no porting or blasting or none of that, just been working on those style heads for 25 years and have a good handle on what it takes in a 45* Valve Job to get them moving air. I have 5 cutters I use on the intake and 4 on the exhaust and then they really pull extra air in the .100"-.300" range which really boosts the air up higher. The flow numbers may not be super big but they are going up 2-3 cfms every .050" and that keeps the intake port from stalling out.
Most folks don't pay much attention to the small stuff but you also have to get the height perspective of the intake to the exhaust just right to keep the exhaust port from killing off the intake during the TDC overlap.
On any heads that we replace guides and seats on we always try and position both the intake and exhaust in a better location as to improve airflow and still keeping close to the stock guide centerlines. All in all that little stuff adds up to an additional +20-25 HP on top of the 20-25HP you pick up from the valve job. On my bench ( @ 25" Depression ) we need to pick up 25 cfm and that translates to about 50HP on the engine dyno. On most heads you can pick up 5-10 cfm just switching from 4" bore column to 4.060" and then offsetting the intake valve away from the bore another .020"-.030" gains you another 5 cfms. If you know what you are doing you can drop the valve size slightly like 2.02 to 2" and pick up another 5 cfm if you pick the right valve head shape.
How do you learn this stuff, you have heads laying around and 20 different valves and you figure out what heads like what valves by trial and error and moving the head around on the flow fixture as well as playing with seat heights and locations.
Mark@AlienChassisDYno.com
More is always better!!! Most of the time.
Re: vortec, perimeter valve cover bolts ?
man alive you really got it down, ill bet you do a lot of stock rules stuff. heres the rules on enginesraceman14 wrote:What are the actual rules pertaining to the heads???
The 305 - 450 casting is decent for compression as it is a small chamber with a decent port, but for stock later model chevy heads I think the 487x is still the one to go with if the earlier model 186's are not legal.
I think our best legal smog head 358" Engine with a 500-2bbl was about 425-450HP with some hydraulic cam and lifter work, good springs and loaded up fuel. Had to pump 180# on compression tester.
If you need any heads flow tested, I run my flow bench almost every day and 99% of what I test for folks are Limited Engine Heads & Intakes. I have some really nice Serdi Cutters to get a super nice multiple angle valve job on stock seats as well as a couple tricks to help those heads move about 20 more cfm's and still tech legal, no porting or blasting or none of that, just been working on those style heads for 25 years and have a good handle on what it takes in a 45* Valve Job to get them moving air. I have 5 cutters I use on the intake and 4 on the exhaust and then they really pull extra air in the .100"-.300" range which really boosts the air up higher. The flow numbers may not be super big but they are going up 2-3 cfms every .050" and that keeps the intake port from stalling out.
Most folks don't pay much attention to the small stuff but you also have to get the height perspective of the intake to the exhaust just right to keep the exhaust port from killing off the intake during the TDC overlap.
On any heads that we replace guides and seats on we always try and position both the intake and exhaust in a better location as to improve airflow and still keeping close to the stock guide centerlines. All in all that little stuff adds up to an additional +20-25 HP on top of the 20-25HP you pick up from the valve job. On my bench ( @ 25" Depression ) we need to pick up 25 cfm and that translates to about 50HP on the engine dyno. On most heads you can pick up 5-10 cfm just switching from 4" bore column to 4.060" and then offsetting the intake valve away from the bore another .020"-.030" gains you another 5 cfms. If you know what you are doing you can drop the valve size slightly like 2.02 to 2" and pick up another 5 cfm if you pick the right valve head shape.
How do you learn this stuff, you have heads laying around and 20 different valves and you figure out what heads like what valves by trial and error and moving the head around on the flow fixture as well as playing with seat heights and locations.
Mark@AlienChassisDYno.com
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Re: vortec, perimeter valve cover bolts ?
there is nothing in those rules to not allow oem 062 or 906 vortec heads. they have straight plugs.
they will make the most power.
what is "standard porting" ? as cast no porting? , hand porting but no port welding or epoxy?....
the vortecs make even more power with 202-205 valves and porting.
they will make the most power.
what is "standard porting" ? as cast no porting? , hand porting but no port welding or epoxy?....
the vortecs make even more power with 202-205 valves and porting.
Re: vortec, perimeter valve cover bolts ?
If porting is allowed, another oem head that will work well with full porting
And larger 202-205 valves is the cast L-98 TPI motor head #083.
It has straight plugs and center bolt covers too.
But conventional (not like) vortec ports and intake pattern.
Decent chamber, decent once ported.
Decent plug location for angle milling for big cr.
And larger 202-205 valves is the cast L-98 TPI motor head #083.
It has straight plugs and center bolt covers too.
But conventional (not like) vortec ports and intake pattern.
Decent chamber, decent once ported.
Decent plug location for angle milling for big cr.
Re: vortec, perimeter valve cover bolts ?
I am like F-Bird eh...born in Regina brother, and still love the Leafs.
Not really sure what "Standard Porting" means but I think it is a mis-print in the rule meaning "standard ports only", I would check that before I sunk a ton $$$ in some ported heads;
That being said, I don't see anything in the rules preventing you from running vortec heads as well as the other option with porting allowed. If you don't know much about porting I would run the vortecs and look for the smaller chamber heads to help with compression ratio. Porting on either of those heads probably adds another 50cfm or 100HP with the Vortecs being about 15-20cfm better than other chevy heads right off the bat = +30-40hp. I have seen some heavily ported 186's that make some good power. Pretty much any of those heads are just a matter of how much you want to spend to make the most power.
Intake says standard porting allowed also and that really helps a 2101
That rule follows some of the dirt track rules that allow porting in Limited-Late Model classes so I have a pretty good recipe for that too. These racers end up with $1500-2500 in heads and intake with some work done to them and a decent parts list. I like to run as light a possible valvetrain in the heads so that makes the price go up some ( Hollow Stem Alien prepped valves, LW Alien steel retainers and locs as well as Alien 1.250" Outlaw Springs ). The LW package adds 500-1000rpm to almost any stock type valvetrain especially with hydraulic lifters ( and there is another 15-20HP in the lifters and +15-20HP in a cam designed around the cylinder head flow ).
I have been buying up good stock steel head cores to use as my 401-k program as they are hard to find in decent shape. I have got 3 or 4 pallets of maybe 50 heads per pallet to pick from for stock head projects. In non ported classes it pays to have 20 heads to pick from to get the best flowing castings as there is about 5-10% variation in stock castings or 10-20cfms = 20-40HP. ( my rule of thumb is 2HP per cfm head flow at 25" on my Superflow bench and has worked for me for 30 years ).
I have been flowing heads and intakes daily for about 25 years now and learn new stuff every day.
Really in most race engines the stocker the rules the more $$$ there is to making power with those engines much like the GM Crate series.
Mark@AlienChassisDYno
Not really sure what "Standard Porting" means but I think it is a mis-print in the rule meaning "standard ports only", I would check that before I sunk a ton $$$ in some ported heads;
That being said, I don't see anything in the rules preventing you from running vortec heads as well as the other option with porting allowed. If you don't know much about porting I would run the vortecs and look for the smaller chamber heads to help with compression ratio. Porting on either of those heads probably adds another 50cfm or 100HP with the Vortecs being about 15-20cfm better than other chevy heads right off the bat = +30-40hp. I have seen some heavily ported 186's that make some good power. Pretty much any of those heads are just a matter of how much you want to spend to make the most power.
Intake says standard porting allowed also and that really helps a 2101
That rule follows some of the dirt track rules that allow porting in Limited-Late Model classes so I have a pretty good recipe for that too. These racers end up with $1500-2500 in heads and intake with some work done to them and a decent parts list. I like to run as light a possible valvetrain in the heads so that makes the price go up some ( Hollow Stem Alien prepped valves, LW Alien steel retainers and locs as well as Alien 1.250" Outlaw Springs ). The LW package adds 500-1000rpm to almost any stock type valvetrain especially with hydraulic lifters ( and there is another 15-20HP in the lifters and +15-20HP in a cam designed around the cylinder head flow ).
I have been buying up good stock steel head cores to use as my 401-k program as they are hard to find in decent shape. I have got 3 or 4 pallets of maybe 50 heads per pallet to pick from for stock head projects. In non ported classes it pays to have 20 heads to pick from to get the best flowing castings as there is about 5-10% variation in stock castings or 10-20cfms = 20-40HP. ( my rule of thumb is 2HP per cfm head flow at 25" on my Superflow bench and has worked for me for 30 years ).
I have been flowing heads and intakes daily for about 25 years now and learn new stuff every day.
Really in most race engines the stocker the rules the more $$$ there is to making power with those engines much like the GM Crate series.
Mark@AlienChassisDYno
More is always better!!! Most of the time.
Re: vortec, perimeter valve cover bolts ?
standard type porting means whatever you can do with a hand grinder, just no welding or exotic stuff. have y'all ever made a gt40p or 69 Windsor heads flow ? is it possible ?
Re: vortec, perimeter valve cover bolts ?
Well, that's not a problem standard porting was what they had when CUP cars were making over 700HP on Crane Fireball heads built out of stock GM Castings before Bowties came along. Got a couple sets of them sitting on my 401K pallets.
As far as the Fords go, anything is possible. The port volumes on both Ford heads is pretty small for big power. There is plenty of meat there to make improvements but in my world we always went for the 9N head which was Fords answer to the GM Bowtie head. But those heads never came on a street car. Back about 30 years ago I ported a ton of Mustang GT heads and manifolds. I ported some stock heads for the Kennerly boys and and they ran in the Mustang shoot-out with a 10" street tire and pretty much heavy GT car and went 10.42 and I think 116 that was fuel injected with the stock shoe box, only thing not exactly stock was the Buick GNX fuel injectors and boosting the fuel pressure up pretty good with a WOT switch that switched on a second in tank fuel pump. There is always more than one way to skin a cat.
Did the GT-40's come on a street car? Not sure what valve sizes came stock in those Ford heads either but I think they were pretty small weren't they? I think 351-W C9OE heads came with 1.84-1.54 and 60cc chambers.
I guess the bottom line is this...
What is your horsepower goal ???
What is your budget???
That will allow any engine builder to give you a much better answer rather than 20 more posts back and forth on what is good and what is better.
As far as the Fords go, anything is possible. The port volumes on both Ford heads is pretty small for big power. There is plenty of meat there to make improvements but in my world we always went for the 9N head which was Fords answer to the GM Bowtie head. But those heads never came on a street car. Back about 30 years ago I ported a ton of Mustang GT heads and manifolds. I ported some stock heads for the Kennerly boys and and they ran in the Mustang shoot-out with a 10" street tire and pretty much heavy GT car and went 10.42 and I think 116 that was fuel injected with the stock shoe box, only thing not exactly stock was the Buick GNX fuel injectors and boosting the fuel pressure up pretty good with a WOT switch that switched on a second in tank fuel pump. There is always more than one way to skin a cat.
Did the GT-40's come on a street car? Not sure what valve sizes came stock in those Ford heads either but I think they were pretty small weren't they? I think 351-W C9OE heads came with 1.84-1.54 and 60cc chambers.
I guess the bottom line is this...
What is your horsepower goal ???
What is your budget???
That will allow any engine builder to give you a much better answer rather than 20 more posts back and forth on what is good and what is better.
More is always better!!! Most of the time.
Re: vortec, perimeter valve cover bolts ?
with those rules as a chevy guy I would be building a Cleveland.
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wrenchbender
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Re: vortec, perimeter valve cover bolts ?
Does a Ford make decent power with a 2P manifold?
In Nascar LMS we always scalded the Fords until Nascar approved the 9N head and matching open manifold.
If they allow a Macfarland manifold I don't think there is much out there that could outrun that deal with a set of ported Small Chamber vortecs.
I have a 358" engine in the shop now that Kicks 621HP with a ported 2101 and 650 4bbl on VP C-12. Flat-top only real difference is I have on old model Flat Tappet LMS cam in it that is .525" lift, it should not lose more than 10-15HP dropping to .500". Heads are angle milled a little and rolled some on the intakes and flow close to 280cfm @ .550 lift 25" pull. They run a 2" intake and 1.55 exhaust and 14.3:1 Compression, .060" copper head gasket with pistons out of the hole .050". I could change to an .016 steel shim gasket and zero deck and not lose too much compression.
2101 Manifold might have got ported thru here and there, in a couple spots but never had a problem with that. We only got a 1" 4-hole spacer on this engine, I think with a 2" or 3" spacer I could maybe make more HP even with .025" less cam lift.
Whats rules on rods, crank and pistons as well as rocker arms and pushrods??? Even with stock stuff there is a ton of things we can do to make the bottom end trick as a Pro-Stocker.
Is there an RPM limit on the engines???
Can you run vacuum lines off of headers to engine?
In Nascar LMS we always scalded the Fords until Nascar approved the 9N head and matching open manifold.
If they allow a Macfarland manifold I don't think there is much out there that could outrun that deal with a set of ported Small Chamber vortecs.
I have a 358" engine in the shop now that Kicks 621HP with a ported 2101 and 650 4bbl on VP C-12. Flat-top only real difference is I have on old model Flat Tappet LMS cam in it that is .525" lift, it should not lose more than 10-15HP dropping to .500". Heads are angle milled a little and rolled some on the intakes and flow close to 280cfm @ .550 lift 25" pull. They run a 2" intake and 1.55 exhaust and 14.3:1 Compression, .060" copper head gasket with pistons out of the hole .050". I could change to an .016 steel shim gasket and zero deck and not lose too much compression.
2101 Manifold might have got ported thru here and there, in a couple spots but never had a problem with that. We only got a 1" 4-hole spacer on this engine, I think with a 2" or 3" spacer I could maybe make more HP even with .025" less cam lift.
Whats rules on rods, crank and pistons as well as rocker arms and pushrods??? Even with stock stuff there is a ton of things we can do to make the bottom end trick as a Pro-Stocker.
Is there an RPM limit on the engines???
Can you run vacuum lines off of headers to engine?
More is always better!!! Most of the time.
Re: vortec, perimeter valve cover bolts ?
no rules on rods, crank, pistons must be flattop. any rockers and pushrods. this is supposed to be a budget stock heads with porting allowed class. something like fords running 69 Windsor or gt40p iron and chevys running double humps or vortec heads. small country dragstrip in Centerville Arkansas. all this specialized stuff is making me worried. not much prize for winning.raceman14 wrote:Does a Ford make decent power with a 2P manifold?
In Nascar LMS we always scalded the Fords until Nascar approved the 9N head and matching open manifold.
If they allow a Macfarland manifold I don't think there is much out there that could outrun that deal with a set of ported Small Chamber vortecs.
I have a 358" engine in the shop now that Kicks 621HP with a ported 2101 and 650 4bbl on VP C-12. Flat-top only real difference is I have on old model Flat Tappet LMS cam in it that is .525" lift, it should not lose more than 10-15HP dropping to .500". Heads are angle milled a little and rolled some on the intakes and flow close to 280cfm @ .550 lift 25" pull. They run a 2" intake and 1.55 exhaust and 14.3:1 Compression, .060" copper head gasket with pistons out of the hole .050". I could change to an .016 steel shim gasket and zero deck and not lose too much compression.
2101 Manifold might have got ported thru here and there, in a couple spots but never had a problem with that. We only got a 1" 4-hole spacer on this engine, I think with a 2" or 3" spacer I could maybe make more HP even with .025" less cam lift.
Whats rules on rods, crank and pistons as well as rocker arms and pushrods??? Even with stock stuff there is a ton of things we can do to make the bottom end trick as a Pro-Stocker.
Is there an RPM limit on the engines???
Can you run vacuum lines off of headers to engine?