Free California Vizard Seminar

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

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Kevin Johnson
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Re: Free California Vizard Seminar

Post by Kevin Johnson »

Warp Speed wrote:I am fully aware of what your talking about..............
My point was, David has a graph in one of his publications that shows the cylinder pressure is the lowest (-100") 30* prior to TDC, but never reaching lower than -30" throughout the intake stroke/peak demand. Based on this data, he recommends flowing low lifts at a very high depression, and upper lifts at lower levels. Many on here have referenced this as being correct, and lend their current thinking towards it.
I know you have seen the graph in question, do you agree with the cylinder pressure measurements, and the flow testing recommendations based off of them?


viewtopic.php?f=1&t=41433&hilit=Vizard
http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine_te ... nology.htm
exhaust_technology_02.jpg
In the picture below I have copied the approximate trace of the cylinder pressure in Figure 2 from the above link (the black line), converted, scaled and translated it and then superimposed it as a white trace onto the DV chart/graph that Warp Speed is referring to:
VIZARD.jpg
Perhaps the difficulty in cylinder pressure measurements (?) can now be indicated with respect to the data from two independent researchers and (presumably) two different engines?

Getting back to the OP, David Vizard is very generous with his time. I hope he has a nice visit to the Bay Area.
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Re: Free California Vizard Seminar

Post by nitro2 »

Warp Speed wrote:I am fully aware of what your talking about..............
I never doubted that you were :)

We always test at low (28), medium (4 x 28), and high vacuum (10 x 28), and sometimes some others, for all valve lifts.
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Re: Free California Vizard Seminar

Post by Warp Speed »

:)
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Re: Free California Vizard Seminar

Post by MrBo »

Holy friggen vacuum pump Batman!
This below is my 357” engine’s data, as sits now, parts matched right or wrong.
I just tested my intake ports….@ 306 cfm@ 28"
According to Dynomation, (and my conversions) these cylinders are pulling 240" water at 429 degrees or 69* ATDC on the intake stroke.
Intake port pressure .51 bar
Exhaust port pressure .48 bar
Cylinder pressure .40 bar :shock: :shock:
I am not sure if Dynomation graphs cylinder pressure, but I just found out it shows it in the crank angle stuff.

Thanks for making the point Warp. I see more now. :)


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Re: Free California Vizard Seminar

Post by MrWOT »

Thanks for the heads up Swatson, that's only an hour away from me for once :shock:

I'll be there. :D
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Re: Free California Vizard Seminar

Post by MadBill »

The graph shows the exhaust pressure at TDC to be 0.3 bar less than the inlet pressure; a delta of 4.35 psi or 120 "H2O. As seen by the early cutoff of the intake pressure 'sine wave' and the lowest point of the exhaust pressure trace being well right of center in the overlap area, both systems are tuned for perhaps 500-800 RPM less, at which point the delta P would likely be 140 "H2O or more.

BTW, since the chart text gives cylinder pressure and inlet/exhaust velocities, I'm sure they can be turned on or off on the display, just as in my 1998-vintage Dynomation program. Mine also shows a cylinder P/V diagram in the lower right corner...
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Re: Free California Vizard Seminar

Post by GARY C »

MrBo wrote:Holy friggen vacuum pump Batman!
This below is my 357” engine’s data, as sits now, parts matched right or wrong.
I just tested my intake ports….@ 306 cfm@ 28"
According to Dynomation, (and my conversions) these cylinders are pulling 240" water at 429 degrees or 69* ATDC on the intake stroke.
Intake port pressure .51 bar
Exhaust port pressure .48 bar
Cylinder pressure .40 bar :shock: :shock:
I am not sure if Dynomation graphs cylinder pressure, but I just found out it shows it in the crank angle stuff.

Thanks for making the point Warp. I see more now. :)

Just out of curiosity, was you able to dyno this engine? I was wondering if it returned the power numbers shown in the program?
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Re: Free California Vizard Seminar

Post by MrBo »

MadBill wrote:The graph shows the exhaust pressure at TDC to be 0.3 bar less than the inlet pressure; a delta of 4.35 psi or 120 "H2O. As seen by the early cutoff of the intake pressure 'sine wave' and the lowest point of the exhaust pressure trace being well right of center in the overlap area, both systems are tuned for perhaps 500-800 RPM less, at which point the delta P would likely be 140 "H2O or more.

BTW, since the chart text gives cylinder pressure and inlet/exhaust velocities, I'm sure they can be turned on or off on the display, just as in my 1998-vintage Dynomation program. Mine also shows a cylinder P/V diagram in the lower right corner...
Thanks for the insights.

Yes, I can turn that crank data box off, I just discovered how to turn it on yesterday.
It’s in the tools menu in the newer version and called the “crank angle datasim window”. The data in it changes as you move the red dashed line with the mouse pointer.
I used that feature to find the max cylinder depression.
I looked back at your screen pic, and I see you may have the same dashed line.
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Re: Free California Vizard Seminar

Post by MrBo »

GARY C wrote: Just out of curiosity, was you able to dyno this engine? I was wondering if it returned the power numbers shown in the program?
No, I never dynoed it.
The engine pushes about 2800lbs to about 139 mph in the 1/4 mile. How much power that is could be open to various interpretations. I have no idea.
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Re: Free California Vizard Seminar

Post by GARY C »

MrBo wrote:
GARY C wrote: Just out of curiosity, was you able to dyno this engine? I was wondering if it returned the power numbers shown in the program?
No, I never dynoed it.
The engine pushes about 2800lbs to about 139 mph in the 1/4 mile. How much power that is could be open to various interpretations. I have no idea.
Cool, thanks for the reply. with that info there are probably programs to predict power pretty close.

I was trying to put your chart into relation to DV's chart, his was based on data from a 355 making 620 hp and around 460 to 470 tq.
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Re: Free California Vizard Seminar

Post by Warp Speed »

GARY C wrote:
MrBo wrote:
GARY C wrote: Just out of curiosity, was you able to dyno this engine? I was wondering if it returned the power numbers shown in the program?
No, I never dynoed it.
The engine pushes about 2800lbs to about 139 mph in the 1/4 mile. How much power that is could be open to various interpretations. I have no idea.
Cool, thanks for the reply. with that info there are probably programs to predict power pretty close.

I was trying to put your chart into relation to DV's chart, his was based on data from a 355 making 620 hp and around 460 to 470 tq.
MrBo is showing about 600ish with his mph and vehicle weight.
I wonder why the big difference in pressures graphs from DV book to what simulation is showing???
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Re: Free California Vizard Seminar

Post by BradH »

There is another graph in the DV book that shows the results for a 440" stroker SBC where the pressure at peak lift appears close to 50" H2O.
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Re: Free California Vizard Seminar

Post by BradH »

BradH wrote:There is another graph in the DV book that shows the results for a 440" stroker SBC where the pressure at peak lift appears close to 50" H2O.
Found it...
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Re: Free California Vizard Seminar

Post by twl »

What I keep noticing about these graphs is that the port velocity and seat velocity drop dramatically, after the big scavenge depression, and then go back up dramatically when the piston is descending.

This seems to imply that the effect from the scavenging depression is very short lived, and only effective in evacuation of the chamber because the valves aren't hardly even open yet. Of course it will have a big vacuum when its sucking on a closed chamber that can't let any air in.

As soon as the valve gets open to any significant level, the whole scavenging depression then falls right on its face, and doesn't pick back up until the piston draws it in.

As for the cylinder pressure, I don't doubt that an empty closed chamber will show a lot of depression when hooking a vacuum up to it, but when the valve opens and air starts coming in, then the cylinder pressure is starting to equalize with air filling into it, so of course it isn't going to show such a low depression during that time. Equalization is going on. As long as the draw from the piston stays ahead of the incoming mixture rush, we have what is needed. If the cylinder pressure stayed very low during that time, I don't think we'd like it very much because it would indicate that no air is getting in there.

This is what I'm seeing out of this.
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Re: Free California Vizard Seminar

Post by MadBill »

twl wrote:What I keep noticing about these graphs is that the port velocity and seat velocity drop dramatically, after the big scavenge depression, and then go back up dramatically when the piston is descending.

This seems to imply that the effect from the scavenging depression is very short lived, and only effective in evacuation of the chamber because the valves aren't hardly even open yet. Of course it will have a big vacuum when its sucking on a closed chamber that can't let any air in.

As soon as the valve gets open to any significant level, the whole scavenging depression then falls right on its face, and doesn't pick back up until the piston draws it in.

As for the cylinder pressure, I don't doubt that an empty closed chamber will show a lot of depression when hooking a vacuum up to it, but when the valve opens and air starts coming in, then the cylinder pressure is starting to equalize with air filling into it, so of course it isn't going to show such a low depression during that time. Equalization is going on. As long as the draw from the piston stays ahead of the incoming mixture rush, we have what is needed. If the cylinder pressure stayed very low during that time, I don't think we'd like it very much because it would indicate that no air is getting in there.

This is what I'm seeing out of this.

You seem to be inferring that scavenge is over-rated or misconstrued. Consider:
o The seat velocity drops briefly both because the curtain area is increasing rapidly from zero on a percentage basis and because the delta produced between the port and the cylinder due to the piston accelerating down the bore is less than the previous scavenge delta. As the piston continues to accelerate, the increasing port area and resulting flow can't keep up, so the cylinder pressure slowly drops until ~ max piston speed (~440° on the graph) is reached.
o The port velocity does not drop off at the end of the scavenge/overlap region, it just rises a little more slowly for ~ 30°.
o It's highly significant and important that intake port flow begins at ~ 45° BTDC* and reaches ~ 120 ft./sec by TDC. (It is letting plenty of air in.) Visualize the lost 'area under the (port velocity) curve' that would result if intake flow didn't begin until TDC. There's no way that mass could be recouped later in the stroke absent the scavenging effect.
o It's flow that matters, not depression. Of course the scavenge pulse drops off; the exhaust valve is closed, but now piston motion takes over the job.
o If the graph was 'busied up' with intake and exhaust pressure traces, it would be clearer.
o * As an aside, note the significant reverse flow as IVC is approached...
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