440 "six pack" cam

[wyrmrider]

you could if it's a symmetrical lobe
I know Jones is asymetrical
on the Crane Chevy grind f-birrd
going from a 292 degree intake to a 278 - 14 degrees shorter even with the 114 lca is going to do what to his dynamic compression?
might work on a low compression late model HP car but not here
$171 at Summit
he might as well get the 67.97 Summit cam sum-6401

[F-BIRD'88]

you could if it's a symmetrical lobe
I know Jones is asymetrical
on the Crane Chevy grind f-birrd
going from a 292 degree intake to a 278 - 14 degrees shorter even with the 114 lca is going to do what to his dynamic compression?
might work on a low compression late model HP car but not here
$171 at Summit
he might as well get the 67.97 Summit cam sum-6401

It would be a mistake to compare or equate the good Crane HMV series hyd cams with a generic cam.
This cam is fine with 9.5 to 10:1cr on premimum pump gas.
These are proven powerfull modern high perf asymentrical hyd profiles that work and run quiet too.
This is a very good street cam for this project.
You are overthinking it and the DCR crap calc will not tell you.
Real world experience trumps this crap.

http://www.cranecams.com call 'em

is there any plan to improve the stock 440 heads by porting them? if so then the motor can benefit from increased valve lift.
Especially in the intake ports. Adding 8 Crane 1.6 ratio rockers to the crane HMV278-2 cam gives very near the net valve lift of the famed nasty .509" lift "purple shaft" cam Yet the crane cam is much tamer.

Net valve lift lift will be .498" intake (1.60) and .494" exhaust (1.5)
Very near hyd roller cam performance.
You will really like this cam in your 440 six pack street engine.

[wyrmrider]

Problem is he has way more than 10:1
Unless crane is using new masters with old numbers the 280H is in my 40 year old crane catalog
no way it compares to a bullet
what makes you thing crane is new or asymetrical?
What's the timing on the Crane he needs intake to close 56 or later but this needs fine tuning for seat timing- intensity
Timing on the Summit (click on instructions) is -3 56 41-2 for -1 overlap
recommended on a 109 icl which is 5 degrees advanced with a 114 lca
compare with the stock cam
I'm not recommending summit except to buy time for a complete rebuild

[F-BIRD'88]

The listed stock cr of a 1970 440 six pack engine is 10:1cr.
The real cr is actually usually a bit less.
This cam will run fine even up to 10.50:1 in this motor on good 92+ octane gas.
But I would not venture beyond that. 10:1 is easy. Its just right.

[wyrmrider]

Ah F-Bird
My notes have 6 pack at 10.3 but you are correct,, deck has to be milled and heads milled to blueprint minimum
Today's 93 octane is about 97 research octane compared to 100 octane Sonoco or Chevron Custom supreme
still a crap combustion chamber and spark plug location, perhaps #85 is the answer
OP 3:54 or 4:10 or 3:90?
his
http://www.cranecams.com/uploads/catalo ... atalog.pdf
page 9
HC904 for street and endurance applications
H2 for street and racing
H3 more aggressive than H2 (so bvvc with a heavy valvetrain)
gives .050, .004 and 200

now to see if any of these match up with the catalog cams

Brad H said 214 @.050 292@.004 124 intake @200 factory Magnum .447 lift
Crane H218/293 (.440 w 1.5) is 270 @.010 ??? and 124@200 the .010 would compare to an Isky Megacam but hard with anything else except maybe engle at .008
however H2 and H3 lines use .004
Crane H212/3040 284 @.004 and 125 @200 456 lift which is 8 degrees less on the seat than the Magnum
H222/3200 294 136 480 lift so you can pick up 8 degrees at .050 with 2 degrees more seat timing
and you pick up 12 @200 where it counts for power
The H3 H236/348 292 (Same as Magnum) 28 more @.200 522 lift
in catalog as H-236/348-2S-12 11-59 45-5 112 lca

H220/320 276 136 480
Fbird H278-2 278 133 467 2-56 40 -2 114 lca .842
H-222/3114-2S-12 278 133 467 4-54 38-0 112 lca .842 same grind different lca


H224/300 HC904 280 130 450
H225/320 HC904 280 136 480
H-228/3200 2s-8 HMV 284 139 480 .842 11-50 37-4 108 chevy lobe
H228/334 H3 284 145 501
H230/306 HC904 290 135 .459 Intake with stock rockers?
Magnum 292 124 447 5--39 51 -5 115 lca
H-236/348-2S-12 H3 292 153 522 11-59 45-5 112 lca H3 might be too aggressive for stock rockers
H222/3200 H2 294 136 480
H230/3201 HC904 300 139 480 ex with stock rockers?
H235/346 HC904 300 149 .519
H244/362 H3 300 161 543 used as exhaust on H-236/348-2S-12 may be too aggressive for stock rockers
H245/366 HC904 300 160 549



H278-2 appears to be an .842 HMV series H222/3114 133@200 278@.004 and .467 lift also in the catalog as H-222/3114-2S-12 with a 112 lca instead of the H278-2 114
IDK about using a max velocity profile on a heavy valvetrain motor
The H2 mopar equivalent would be H222/3200 136 @200 but with stock rockers i think the HC904 series should be considered
given that the H235/346 lobe looks good if there is that much retainer clearance without cutting the guides

[wyrmrider]

Direct Connection Performance Book P4286675 is 260 Mopar Duration 34 overlap .430 lift"maximum area cam" for a standard 440 replacement 113 lca 110icl

the Road Runner cam 2843564 (375Hp 440) 228/ 241 @.050 268 268/284 46 degrees overlap 450-458 lift
These are MOPAR degrees not "@ some height like .004 or .006 degrees" but they are consistent across MOPAR and MOPAR performance
R.Karkashian 208-221 @.050 but I think bigger- see Crane and in prior post 308 is more like the standard cam
you can compare to vendors "blueprint" or "our version" so far Crane has been closest
factory timing 21-67 79 25 when 115 lca 113 ATDC icl 117 BTDC excl

One step bigger was the "Street Hemi" grind P4286631 280 MOPAR degrees, 60 degrees overlap 110 lca 108 icl
"This bigger cam offers more power but idle deteriorates, the engine has lower vacuum, driveability and torque are lower, less fuel economy
older "street Hemi grind" P3690214 was 284 .471in .474 ex 108 lca 106 icl
Turns out this cam is "too big" with stock HP converter and gears and back in the day we verified this- 60 ft times drops but see later data below

DC " Many desire the characteristics of the 440 375 Hp production cam"- (essentially what a 6 pack has) but shorter than the "Street Hemi"
new for 1984 while offering more power than 268-284 (Mopar degrees) HP cam 272 Mopar degrees .455 lift 112 lca
giving 48 MOPAR degrees overlap 108 icl also show as 110 icl 114 ex cl
P4286677AC 231@.050 26-66 70-22 48 overlap

There were also
284-108 .484 lift single pattern cam on a 108 lca P4120235 106 icl
292-108 .509 commonly called the "purple shaft" P4120663
now there are
280-110 .474 238 @.050 P4452993AC 106 icl 114 BTDC ex cl 34-66 74-26 60 overlap
284-108 .484 241 @.050 P4120235AC 108 icl 108 ex cl 34-70 70-34 68 overlap
284-114 .484 241 @.050 P5007697AC "revised center line for improved street driveability"
292-108 .509 248 @.050 P4120237AC 108 icl 108 excl 38-74 74-38 76 overlap
Herb McCandless measured 242@.050 = your mileage will vary

Hemi Hyd
278-108 235@.050 but measured at 228
292-108 248 @.050 but measured at 242 (chrysler changed vendors several times along the way)

292-114 .509 248 @.050 P5007698AC "revised center line for improved street driveability"

Magnum 12.35 110.27
early st hemi 12.17 112.60 (but slower 60 ft)
DC 284-108 11.91 115.30
DC 292-108 11.82 116.61
tested in a 3000# Duster 400 cu in low compression Stage IV heads, stock valves, TQ 727 430 gears

Back in the Day Direct Connection offered the Racer Brown SSH-25 108.5lca .485 lift 286 degrees 108 icl "straight up" 238 @.050
and the SSH-44-108 lca 292 degrees .510 lift 106 icl (2 degrees advanced)

I copied from the DC book but here are the early and 1984 cam charts on line
http://www.mopar1.us/camchart.html

Incidentally we tested the first (and only) Isky solid for the .904 lifter- still a great cam for dialing in a chassis
I don't think it's in the catalog any more- but do not try and tell me a .904 specific grind is not worth it
we picked up a bunch from the Stage II wedge cam 300-308 .518 lift 115 lca installed at 110 icl
later Racer Brown came out with his STX-22 -- very similar 310 degrees 590 lift
wish we had today's springs back then

Editorial
I really do not like the way Crane 284 and others give the same grind with two different lobe centers and give it two different names- perhaps one is ground in Detroit and the less popular in house- still a Chevy grind but the part number looks like a special till you look up the lift and duration...

[BradH]

You can't use the MP data for determining .050" duration values. Example: their 272*/.455"/112LSA hydaulic measured 222-223 at .050". I also have no idea at what lift the "272" is supposed to be since the .006" number was way bigger than that.

You can (and I have) drive yourself nuts over this stuff.

Last comment... the Bob K. cam really is shorter duration at .050" than the OEM cam measurements I provided, but has more aggressive lobes.

[Walter R. Malik]

You can't use the MP data for determining .050" duration values. Example: their 272*/.455"/112LSA hydaulic measured 222-223 at .050". I also have no idea at what lift the "272" is supposed to be since the .006" number was way bigger than that.

Written right in the Mopar Performance Engine book it says that if anyone wishes to know the @.050' numbers of their camshafts ... just subtract a certain given number of degrees from the advertised number.
Different amounts are given for hydraulic, solid and roller cam "Purple Shaft" profiles.

[BradH]

You can't use the MP data for determining .050" duration values. Example: their 272*/.455"/112LSA hydaulic measured 222-223 at .050". I also have no idea at what lift the "272" is supposed to be since the .006" number was way bigger than that.

Written right in the Mopar Performance Engine book it says that if anyone wishes to know the @.050' numbers of their camshafts ... just subtract a certain given number of degrees from the advertised number.
Different amounts are given for hydraulic, solid and roller cam "Purple Shaft" profiles.

I haven't looked at anything published w/in the last 10 years by MP re: cam specifications. It used to be that they said to multiply their adv. duration by .850" to get the .050" duration value, but that factor over-estimated the hydraulic grinds and under-estimated the solid flat-tappet grinds.

If they've come up w/ something new specifically for hyd ft, solid ft, etc., I haven't seen it (like I said above).

[wyrmrider]

ya all have it backwards
I posted most of the .050 durations
however in this case it's the seat timing that's more important
I have cam doctor printouts somewhere on all the MOPAR cams but they have been buried for years
he may need to bleed a little more dynamic compression than stock i.e. not run the usual shorter cam on the street
Brad H posted the .004 durations on the cam he has now which is the same as CRANE or SAE (w/ 1.5 rockers) so adjust for .006- Comp-Jones etc Engle uses .008 so while Engle may appear shorter they are actually longer at the same advertised durations
Mopar takes the cam blueprint and notes where the clearance ramp transitions to the acceleration ramp, then goes up a few thou, then adds 4 degrees to both the intake and exhaust durations
Unique but consistent
why?
Because!
The timings I posted are MOPAR numbers- quite useless except to compare the cam he has now with others
MOPAR shows Intake close at 67 on his cam
268-115 is 67
272-112 is 62
280-110 is 66
284-108 is 70
284-114 is figure it out

[Walter R. Malik]

You can't use the MP data for determining .050" duration values. Example: their 272*/.455"/112LSA hydaulic measured 222-223 at .050". I also have no idea at what lift the "272" is supposed to be since the .006" number was way bigger than that.

Written right in the Mopar Performance Engine book it says that if anyone wishes to know the @.050' numbers of their camshafts ... just subtract a certain given number of degrees from the advertised number.
Different amounts are given for hydraulic, solid and roller cam "Purple Shaft" profiles.

I haven't looked at anything published w/in the last 10 years by MP re: cam specifications. It used to be that they said to multiply their adv. duration by .850" to get the .050" duration value, but that factor over-estimated the hydraulic grinds and under-estimated the solid flat-tappet grinds.

If they've come up w/ something new specifically for hyd ft, solid ft, etc., I haven't seen it (like I said above).

The book to which I am referring was Mopar part number P4452790, written by Larry Shepherd and published in 1990 so, yea ... it is more than 10 years old.
On page 288 for "B" and "RB" engines, it says in order to compare @.050" numbers with other cams to multiply Hydraulic cams under .620" valve lift by .777 for getting close to the @.050 number and SOLID lifter Performance cams by .850.
They do go on to say ... "if you use this .050" information to select a camshaft for your engine, you will be almost guaranteed to get the wrong one!".

Right or wrong, it has indeed been published by Mopar.

And, yes ... the "off the seat" numbers are much more telling about how it will act as far as manners with street type camshafts.

[SchmidtMotorWorks]

I have a copy of the original FORTRAN based software used at Chrysler to design those cams.
Some day I need to get it working to see what it produces.

[wyrmrider]

I was looking at a
Direct Connections Engine book- most likely earlier than yours cover and a couple of pages are missing so have not seen date
I also have the Mopar Engines book you have P 4452790- not pushing Mopar performance but trying to illustrate the changes caused by duration and lca changes
OP was also interested in driveability
so let's look at MOPAR timing
overlap Intake close
248-248-114 20 Mopar performace torque
252-252 26 59 2 or 4 bbl 13-59 59-13
256-260 32 62 9.2:1 4bbl 14-62 62-14
268-268 48 64 Firepower 360HP 413 1965 4bbl dual ex 430 lift 10:1 24-64 64-24
260-260-113 34 Mopar performance
268-284-115 46 67 Factory Magnum Cam 67 up looks like they spreed the lca from the 65 HP cam- there was a reason!
272-272-112 48 62
280-280-110 60 66
284-284-108 68 70
284-284-114 56 64
292-292-108 76 74
292-292-114 64 68

Bottom line is if he wants to keep the rump d rump reasonable with less overlap and still have similar intake close for not too much dynamic compression with his mechanical compression he needs to keep the lca spread- completely different than a 9:1 motor
and if does keep the lca spread he can go to a faster action cam- given his rocker limitations

[wyrmrider]

I took a look in the 82 Direct Connection book- Let's just say it is "close but no cigar" 6 pack cam at 276 in one place 268 in another etc
for completeness the 72 and 75 Factory Service Manuals show the
Mopar perf 260-260 113 430-430 lift 34 overlap
standard 440 cam as 260-268 with 434 430 lift 38 overlap 18-62 68-20
and Magnum cam as 268-284 with 450 464 lift 46 overlap 21-67 79-25

note that Jones H440D64307 has 256 @.006 202@.050 but 461 lift
essentially shorter seat, about the same @.050 as the standard 440 cam but with more lift than the magnum intake
Max area asymmetrical profile
best intake lobe there is for a lower compression Mopar- Mike can put a longer exhaust on if necessary
note that the Mopar book says their newer 284 and 292 provide more area at similar lift than the earlier profiles
back in the day I spoke with Direct connection and factory cam designer out of the south- might have been Camcraft
back in the day when masters were done with a few points and a file- Bill Jenks (Potvin and Moon) made a replacement for the 252 degree 413-3 truck grind max for the .904 lifter maybe .425 lift stock lift was around .350?
Is the budget summit cam a crane?

[Walter R. Malik]

I took a look in the 82 Direct Connection book- Let's just say it is "close but no cigar" 6 pack cam at 276 in one place 268 in another etc
for completeness the 72 and 75 Factory Service Manuals show the
Mopar perf 260-260 113 430-430 lift 34 overlap
standard 440 cam as 260-268 with 434 430 lift 38 overlap 18-62 68-20
and Magnum cam as 268-284 with 450 464 lift 46 overlap 21-67 79-25

The 6 Pak and Magnum camshafts had the exact same valve timing events.
The 6 Pak cam merely had "low taper" lobes and lifters with matching faces.