Liners vs Guides

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Re: Liners vs Guides

Post by nickmckinney » Fri Jan 30, 2015 9:52 am

They both have their place but its a ton more money to get fully into liners. I have thought about it for a couple sizes but so far just don't see enough projected return with my market. If I was primarily rebuilding stock heads I would be fully tooled up in them.

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Re: Liners vs Guides

Post by racear2865 » Fri Jan 30, 2015 10:20 am

Early model Big Block Chevy will always be a problem to install solid guides. Guides were installed first and then bored. I have seen them off center .030. I always try to do liners so I maintain the original location. .
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Re: Liners vs Guides

Post by PackardV8 » Fri Jan 30, 2015 10:22 am

Anyone using liners ever have problems with the broach occasionally cracking the guide at the top? If so, how is it avoided and what tooling? One reason my guy gives for not using guide liners is he knows some saying they need to have a slightly undersize broach to set the liner and then the finish diameter.
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Re: Liners vs Guides

Post by MotionMachine » Fri Jan 30, 2015 10:54 am

Yes, there are some cast guides that are too thin at the seal diameter to use liners. Bronze are never a problem. If a guide looks like it might be too thin to line, I clamp a plastic tie strap, or use a tiny hose clamp if there is access, to help it from breaking. This might offend some but I don't care anymore. Your guy is worried about having to buy TWO ball broaches?? Are you kidding me? This is the problem with our industry, a lot of shops are so damn cheap they won't buy good equipment and just continue to put out crap for the rest of us to fix later. Get with it or get out of the business. Here's a perfect example of some of the worst work I've ever seen. Why this shop thought it could sleeve a V12 aluminum block engine in the first place is beyond me. This is the printout of the bore locations of a block I probed in relation to the blueprint locations, which is the column on the left. And check out those deck height numbers. How the F do you get them this far off?
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Re: Liners vs Guides

Post by Dan Timberlake » Fri Jan 30, 2015 11:52 am

A few decades back Manley sold iron guides with spiral bronze liners for Harleys.
Nowadays their catalog says this -
BRONZE V BRONZE VALVE GUIDES VE GUIDES
Manley recommends bronze guides for race only applications and cast iron guides for
street use.

For 20 years Downs stairs in a box I have had a set of slightly used Manley valves and new spiral bronze lined guides for a Knucklehead Harley V twin. The Knucklehead (1936-1941) was Harley's first series of OHV, iron heads, air cooled, tortuous intake tract). An experienced, thoughtful, meticulous Harley mechanic and enthusiast built the heads for a customer's street bike probably reaming the guides for whatever minimal clearance Harley called for stock. Within a few hundred miles the engine ran terrible. I don't recall The autopsy results very well. Basically some of the valves had seized in the guides, and I believe portions of the bronze inserts were missing. Manley said they were baffled, but sent some new parts for the repair. The mechanic was not comfortable repeating the process using the replacement guides, so used iron guides and aftermarket stock replacement valves instead, which worked just fine.

i imagine The essentially 2D heat transfer of a relatively thick bronze spring would likely be inferior to the 3D heat transfer a bronze sleeve swaged into place.
Better heat transfer would help reduce the clearance-eating inward expansion tendency of a bronze insert.

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Re: Liners vs Guides

Post by looper » Fri Jan 30, 2015 12:29 pm

Mitch,
I use both types, depends on some variables. Is it wore out beyond a liners OD, How close is the seat angle to the port. Some heads don't have a bottom angle, seat angle then 90. Liners will align with seat better. And sometimes application.

I have found some motorcycle heads have guides to hard to ream, Harley's are an example.

Jack,
I used to use set collars to support thin guides while broaching. I have also found broaching in multiple steps seems to also stop cracking problems. An example would be, if the stem is 11/32", install liner, broach with .341, then .342, then .343, then hone to size. It might add 5 minutes to the job, but is far quicker than replacing a cracked guide.
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Re: Liners vs Guides

Post by needforspeed66gt » Fri Jan 30, 2015 1:05 pm

I really like the liners and use them for most domestic V8 stock resto and mild builds...for real race stuff I put in SI full bronze guides, I also use them to convert early iron heads down to LS 8mm components.
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Re: Liners vs Guides

Post by mitch » Fri Jan 30, 2015 7:47 pm

Goodson vs Kline any experience with each
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Re: Liners vs Guides

Post by looper » Fri Jan 30, 2015 10:16 pm

Mitch,
I personally have not had any problems will any of the different brands of liners. I will say I do like the k-line broaches over the round sizing balls, much easier for me to use and harder to lose.

The air hammer installer is far better than the manual driver, money well spent. Use a short throw air hammer or you will crumple up the guide during installation.
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Re: Liners vs Guides

Post by wheelsup330 » Sat Jan 31, 2015 5:52 am

My experience, the common problem is the guide top is cut for the PC seal, down to a small diameter. You broach the liner to size and split the guide. SO, cut the seal last.... if you have a choice. An old timer told me instead of running the .342 and then .343 just run the .342 several times, for example: till you get .342 (you actually get a better more consistent guide finish size) and I found that will work without splitting them.

X2 on the short stroke air hammer!! You need a nice aircraft style "riveter" actually I found works best.

BUT, Kline and Goodson make a set of split collars that are fit to the seal sizes and these little buddies go right on and bam no more split guides! I use Klines and goodson both, as much as possible to avoid the out of center issues.
Once your tooled up and skilled up they save time.
I have seen Klines with GOBS of miles on them.
The old spiral (heard them called "winona" liners) were a disaster. (they looked like a helicoil)

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Re: Liners vs Guides

Post by Truckedup » Sat Jan 31, 2015 7:53 am

So..liners can be installed in bronze guides? I work on old Brit bikes ,usually have bronze guides . Removing guides can sometimes be an issue if it's a replacement guide in the pastthat was sized to big and "forced" into the guide bore broaching the bore. So if you remove the guide the bore will need to be machined . The guides are .500 OD with a .312 bore , is this enough material for a liner? Thanks
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Re: Liners vs Guides

Post by wheelsup330 » Sat Jan 31, 2015 8:52 am

Yes, bronze liners can go into bronze guides, using the special bronze lube. Thats actually a common size in the automotive world. We run lots of .500 guides and the .312 stem is common (5/16) or 8mm stem sizes. Beautiful thing is the seat work is minimal if you do it right, don't lean on the tooling...

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Re: Liners vs Guides

Post by Hrdlx62 » Tue Feb 03, 2015 11:10 am

I feel liners definately have their place. I use them and like them. That being said what methods are being employed to bore the guide to accept liners? Free hand? S@G machine? dedicated boring fixtures? I do mine freehand with centering cones and would like to take it to a more stable, consistant level. Any input? Thanks.

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Re: Liners vs Guides

Post by Strange Magic » Tue Feb 03, 2015 11:31 am

As long as customers are out there strictly shopping for price, there will always be hack shops in business and that thought holds true with parts purchases.
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Decisions on parts and advise should not be based on how much money a company can pour into marketing. This is a common mis-conception in the industry.

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Re: Liners vs Guides

Post by mitch » Sun Apr 16, 2017 11:56 am

Strange Magic wrote:As long as customers are out there strictly shopping for price, there will always be hack shops in business and that thought holds true with parts purchases.
???

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