Liners vs Guides

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Re: Liners vs Guides

Post by HDBD » Sun Apr 16, 2017 12:25 pm

MotionMachine wrote:
pamotorman wrote:replacing the guide can be a problem if the bore and the OD of the original guide are not concentric. the valve seat in the head could be way off . some guides are bored after they are installed in the heads
This is what I was referring to when I said how heads are manufactured these days. Not everyone is aware of this. As a perfect example I have a 16V MBenz head in here right now that was just "fixed" by some other shop. They replaced 2 intake guides and that's all they did, no seat cutting. I put liners in the rest, cut the seats, the 2 seats with the new guides I had to sink an additional .012" each to clean. Now it needs 2 new seats in that cylinder. Using a quality guide or not has nothing to do with the alignment, the guides on a majority of heads today have non-concentric od's and id's. This started with Honda's and Mitsubishi's back in the 80's as far as I can tell by my own experience. I watched a video that showed the process of guide boring and seat cutting in one operation on a multi axis CNC with the head standing on end. I've tried to find it since on Youtube but can't. It's an eye opener.
Right on the money, have similar issues replacing Harley guides. Have even thought of liners but it would not be too accepted in "the community"

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Re: Liners vs Guides

Post by wyrmrider » Sun Apr 16, 2017 3:36 pm

I may have mentioned this before but those heads that have the guides bored after the guides are installed will be all over the place with new guides
so liners almost every time with these
(same with cam bearings)
I knurl the liners or use the ones with the spiral already there for oil retention
Dan's straight Flute reamefs and hone

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Re: Liners vs Guides

Post by racear2865 » Sun Apr 16, 2017 7:57 pm

Question/answer for those that bore guides for liners when the guide has been cut for seal. I use a small hose clamp on the guide at the seal area. Leave the hose clamp on while you do work on the guide liner. Have never split a guide with hose clamp on it.
reed

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Re: Liners vs Guides

Post by MadBill » Sun Apr 16, 2017 8:59 pm

MotionMachine wrote:... This started with Honda's and Mitsubishi's back in the 80's as far as I can tell by my own experience....
Among others, GM has been causing the same headaches with BBCs since the design appeared mid-sixties.
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Re: Liners vs Guides

Post by hoodeng » Sun Apr 16, 2017 11:17 pm

In regard to the pre 80’s British bikes and Harley Davidson OHV Knuckle /Pan /Shovel engines, in the past guide liners were prone to creep , a number of installation methods were tried and we did not see a marked change in the result ,this was particularly an issue if the engines were used regularly for long distance travel in very hot conditions .I will admit that I have not re visited this type of repair for many years ,maybe it could be worth another look with modern installation practices, but my problem is that sometimes it can take a period of time in service for a pattern to start to emerge in a faulty component or installation issue , by this time I have way too many jobs ‘out there ‘ to be contemplating what might come back and bite me.
Bronze guides {brand name used} in street application were also prone to excessive wear and bell mouthing on the port side so cast iron gives the best results in all the early engines .Since the advent of the Evolution engine in 84 ,valve train wear issues are rare. For early British engines I turn down Harley Evolution guides where possible on a mandrel to suit, as the early British guides had the wear resistance of butter.
A note on installation in any of these engines is to machine the guide down to the spring seat face and heat to manufacturers specification and drive the guide out through the port from the spring side, this reduces the possibility of broaching the guide bore in the head as a lot of these guides o/d would bulge in the unsupported section that was exposed in the port {even cast iron}.

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Re: Liners vs Guides

Post by mitch » Mon Oct 30, 2017 5:01 pm

Does anyone have the liner set up for 6mm and if so I have a small 2 valve motorcycle head that I would like to get done.If anyone is willing to do it let me know
Thanks Mitch

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Re: Liners vs Guides

Post by Belgian1979 » Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:41 am

I have the impression that bronze liners don't hold up well in regular use.

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Re: Liners vs Guides

Post by mitch » Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:46 pm

Belgian1979 wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:41 am
I have the impression that bronze liners don't hold up well in regular use.
I would like to hear more on that from anyone with experience
Thanks Mitch

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Re: Liners vs Guides

Post by ProPower engines » Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:02 pm

mitch wrote:
Mon Oct 30, 2017 5:01 pm
Does anyone have the liner set up for 6mm and if so I have a small 2 valve motorcycle head that I would like to get done.If anyone is willing to do it let me know
Thanks Mitch
I have a 6mm set up for liners.I do them several times a month. They are not as popular of a size as they used to be but I still use them.
There is no issue in doing liners. The big mistakes guys make is putting them in a guide where the top has been cut for a .500 od seal. without a collar on the thin part of the guide it splits. Collars can be had for all sizes like .500 .530 .562 as well as others but those mentioned are the most commonly used collars for North american stuff.
The other issue is guys try to broach too much material at 1 go. With import stuff especially you must start to broach from the stem seal end of the guide as it is not supported by the head casting. That way you move a small amount of material before the broach is fully supported in the guide by the casting of the head.

BBC guides are a PITA as guys don't have a good selection of cutters to use a larger OD for the seal and cut them down too far or farther then needed making the top of the guide weak and crack prone without using a support collar on the guide before broaching.

Goodson sells the collars and cost is between $8-$10 depending on the size needed. Personally I have 8 of all the common sizes of .500 .530 .562 cutter sizes.
There is some available for selected imports as well.

liners are faster and just as good and long lasting as any solid bronze guide. They are easier and faster if you hone finish your guides as they can be broached to within .0003 from final size then finish honed.

There is several minimum finished liners for the same stem size as well. I keep them in 4 different sizes based on stem sizes I use regularly making the finished guide very quick compared to honing out .002" on some.

Broach balls can be had in .0002 size increments from some bearing suppliers that sell the balls only in .0001 incremental sizes and they can be had in both carbide and HHS material. And they are cheap. I have got carbide balls and silver soldered then to a HSS rod to have a wide selection of broach's and they cost between $3-$8 per ball in what ever sizes you want.
Do a google search for carbide balls or HSS bearing balls and you will find a multitude of options for liner sizing broach's :D
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Re: Liners vs Guides

Post by modok » Wed Nov 01, 2017 2:42 am

K-lines hold up as well as most OE guides or perhaps better, but they do not hold up as well as top quality bronze guides or specially hardened iron guides.
If you have a problem child that is HARD on guides, don't use k-lines and expect them to solve the problem
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Re: Liners vs Guides

Post by joe 90 » Wed Nov 01, 2017 5:52 am

My only experience with bronze guides was many years ago with a 272.
I got talked into it by the local reconditioner.
The guides were worn and needed reconditioning.

I should have just not bothered.
That's what happens when you're young and silly and you meet a smooth talker.


But anyway, combined with some other dodgy failed mods I did at the time, I blew the bottom radiator hose off after a bit of full throttle. Couldn't stop due to no stopping places, aimed for a mile up the road but started loosing power, shut it off and coasted.
The valves got stuck in the guides due to getting too hot. Some of the pushrods dropped out, some bent.

Back in those days I never went anywhere without water. oil and tools (it was a" Ford").
I fixed it at the side of the road and drove home on 7 cylinders.


But.


If i'd left the heads as is and worn out.......it wouldn't have happened.

That thing always dripped oil all over the road, I tried all sorts of things, just couldn't stop it.

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Re: Liners vs Guides

Post by rebelrouser » Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:06 pm

I use this system of liner from goodson, https://goodson.com/products/bronzewall-2-bushings

The tooling is similar to a helicoil, the liner screws in, and is sized with different sized balls you push through with a small air hammer, I like them, does anybody else use them? And if you have issues with them what are they?

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Re: Liners vs Guides

Post by ProPower engines » Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:23 pm

rebelrouser wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:06 pm
I use this system of liner from goodson, https://goodson.com/products/bronzewall-2-bushings

The tooling is similar to a helicoil, the liner screws in, and is sized with different sized balls you push through with a small air hammer, I like them, does anybody else use them? And if you have issues with them what are they?
They are a PITA and wear quicker then a smooth wall liner. We tried then many years ago when they were 1st released for use. the liners from K Line worked better and were faster to install and had more options. the threaded in guides came after the bronel press in guides which were a steel sleeve with a bronze liner installed. They were hit and miss for sizing as well.

The grooved or spiralled liners will wear faster then a smooth wall liner because of all the raised load points in the liner in even a hone fitted guide. The smooth wall liners are only available in certain sizes. They even have them to step down from 3/8 to 11/32 stem valves using your std. 3/8 boring reamer and install tooling. I use then in BBC stuff all the time.

Like solid guides some last longer then others and using the correct material is a must for the application.
SBI have some solid press in bronze guides that seems to last in most applications
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Re: Liners vs Guides

Post by mitch » Wed Nov 01, 2017 8:04 pm

Im looking to do mostly small motorcycle stuff from 5-8mm stuff but just not sure how they would hold up in the smaller sizes. Does anyone use them in any of the Harley's and if so how did they work out
Thanks Mitch

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Re: Liners vs Guides

Post by racear2865 » Wed Nov 01, 2017 8:38 pm

I have used both liners and solid guides. I too feel the solid liner is better than the grooved liner. I also chamfer the top to let it hold a little oil. I also take the spring off the seal on the exhaust. The liners I use was some I purchased at a PRI show. Dont remember the name but it wasnt a Kline as just about all theirs are spiraled. I can look in the morning at he name on the liners but I purchased a couple thousand when I purchased.
reed

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