Desktop Dyno program to predict EMC scores?

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mk e
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Re: Desktop Dyno program to predict EMC scores?

Post by mk e »

PackardV8 wrote:
Which takes us back to where we came in. The EMC scoring rewards small bore, long stroke, short rods, tight LSA. Some of the top scorers have told me privately they'd not build an engine like that for street or strip, but dyno racing is its own game.
I guess every form of "racing" has it's own winning formula. Years ago when I did dyno shoot-outs (motorcycles) it was only peak hp and surprisingly my roadrace engine was quite dominate.....even if I was must just breaking transmissions out on the actual roadrace track.

I think a program like dynomation5 is what you want. The consensus seems to be that it over predicts torque so you'll have to watch out for that but it will iterate bore/stroke and cam timing to give you the highest average over the range you specify which sounds like your competition. On the engines I've done with it which only amount to about a dozen it's been very close on peak hp, but a bit high but I tend to size my ports relatively small yielding a pretty wide torque curve anyway, at least with the cams I pick. And unlike fpumping programs like desktop dyno the wave programs properly reward you for well designed and matched heads, cams intake and exhaust systems.

With cams actual measured lobe profiles produce much more accurate results than cam card numbers, but I think I read you need to use comp cams? Dynomation has there full cam profile library available so you're all set there.
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Re: Desktop Dyno program to predict EMC scores?

Post by EthylCat »

The generous Mr Scott Foxwell provided me with the intricate details of one of his builds recently to do a comparison of the sim programs I have. (DYN 5, Eng Pro, Pipemax)

Here are the results:

SUMMARY:
DYNOMATION= 945/850 Within 2% HP(low) and 6% on TQ(high) Off on peaks by 400rpm HP and TQ

ENGINE PRO= 965/825 dead on for HP and within 3% on TQ (high) Dead on for RPM

PIPEMAX= 1081/785 AVERAGE 982/757 LOW Within 5.5% on HP(high avg) and 6% TQ(low avg)

This was a 565 BBC

I have noticed that Dyn 5 is about 25 lb/ft high per 500 hp on average

I would think that a good sim provided with accurate information would be useful in designing and predicting an EMC engine.
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Re: Desktop Dyno program to predict EMC scores?

Post by na svt »

PackardV8 wrote:
To the original question though...models will only take you so far. If you have a few similar builds to go with the model data you'll know where the model is likely off, but it you don't...well......the model will be off so......
Which takes us back to where we came in. The EMC scoring rewards small bore, long stroke, short rods, tight LSA. Some of the top scorers have told me privately they'd not build an engine like that for street or strip, but dyno racing is its own game.
That changed a bit last year when the scoring was changed to include peak hp and tq into the calculation.
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Re: Desktop Dyno program to predict EMC scores?

Post by Stan Weiss »

Does anyone have a link to how they will be calculating the scores this year?

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Re: Desktop Dyno program to predict EMC scores?

Post by ijames »

Stan Weiss wrote:Does anyone have a link to how they will be calculating the scores this year?

Stan
The scoring for each class is in the doc describing that class, see viewtopic.php?f=14&t=43027 for the five docs.
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Re: Desktop Dyno program to predict EMC scores?

Post by Stan Weiss »

ijames wrote:
Stan Weiss wrote:Does anyone have a link to how they will be calculating the scores this year?

Stan
The scoring for each class is in the doc describing that class, see viewtopic.php?f=14&t=43027 for the five docs.
Thanks. Looks like average torque and HP plus cubic inches.

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Re: Desktop Dyno program to predict EMC scores?

Post by SchmidtMotorWorks »

Stan Weiss wrote:
ijames wrote:
Stan Weiss wrote:Does anyone have a link to how they will be calculating the scores this year?

Stan
The scoring for each class is in the doc describing that class, see viewtopic.php?f=14&t=43027 for the five docs.
Thanks. Looks like average torque and HP plus cubic inches.

Stan

divided by cubic inches
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Re: Desktop Dyno program to predict EMC scores?

Post by Walter R. Malik »

SchmidtMotorWorks wrote:

divided by cubic inches
THAT will depend upon which class.
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Re: Desktop Dyno program to predict EMC scores?

Post by RL »

EthylCat wrote:The generous Mr Scott Foxwell provided me with the intricate details of one of his builds recently to do a comparison of the sim programs I have. (DYN 5, Eng Pro, Pipemax)

Here are the results:

SUMMARY:
DYNOMATION= 945/850 Within 2% HP(low) and 6% on TQ(high) Off on peaks by 400rpm HP and TQ

ENGINE PRO= 965/825 dead on for HP and within 3% on TQ (high) Dead on for RPM

PIPEMAX= 1081/785 AVERAGE 982/757 LOW Within 5.5% on HP(high avg) and 6% TQ(low avg)

This was a 565 BBC

I have noticed that Dyn 5 is about 25 lb/ft high per 500 hp on average

I would think that a good sim provided with accurate information would be useful in designing and predicting an EMC engine.

My Dyn 4 reads high also. My Dyn DOS and EA Pro read pretty accurate.

Pipemax isn't really a simulator, it's more part sizing recommendations for the HP you have.
The whole heart of the program relies on your best VE guess, so to use it properly you really need the HP 1st - adjust the VE until the HP is correct -. Then it will tell you what port sizes, etc, are best for the rpm and HP.
All the programs can be fudge tweaked to the correct hp, but if you didn't know the hp before hand it's always going to be tough to be super accurate.

The actual accuracy of hp isn't that super critical, you mainly want to know what changes do to the baseline.

I do remember someone on here doing this sim design on a EMC engine that they ran. From what I remember it was a Mopar - don't hold me to that -, and the chap passed away just before the actual contest so that his friends ran it for him in respect.
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Re: Desktop Dyno program to predict EMC scores?

Post by mk e »

EthylCat wrote:The generous Mr Scott Foxwell provided me with the intricate details of one of his builds recently to do a comparison of the sim programs I have. (DYN 5, Eng Pro, Pipemax)

Here are the results:

SUMMARY:
DYNOMATION= 945/850 Within 2% HP(low) and 6% on TQ(high) Off on peaks by 400rpm HP and TQ
......
.
I just installed a dynomation5 update and opened the file I've been working on to check what I used for collector dimensions.....it' gone from 942hp IIRC to 973. Same file, nothing touched other than the update so it appears Dyn hp has just gone up 3%. I don't see that the torque peak changed much but I didn't have that number memorized and it's hard to read on the screen shot I saved last time I was playing.

anyone else see the same thing?
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Re: Desktop Dyno program to predict EMC scores?

Post by brechlrl »

There is a guy over on the FE Forum, Werby, who has a proprietary program that predicts horsepower torque. it is based on a lot of dyno data he has gathered over the years , and I find it to be quite accurate.

He recently posted some estimated scores for Vintage class

2413 309cid Ford Y dyno=dozens
2235 314cid Plymouth Poly dyno=5
2192 379cid Lincoln Y dyno=7
2176 259cid Studebaker dyno=0 (real wild card w no dyno data - this surprised me, maybe the bright yellow adds torq)
2118 368cid Olds Rocket dyno=2
2116 365cid Cadillac dyno=0 (again no dyno data)
2053 379cid Buick Nailhead dyno=17

Jack if you give him some engine data he can run a score for you
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Re: Desktop Dyno program to predict EMC scores?

Post by RL »

mk e wrote:
EthylCat wrote:The generous Mr Scott Foxwell provided me with the intricate details of one of his builds recently to do a comparison of the sim programs I have. (DYN 5, Eng Pro, Pipemax)

Here are the results:

SUMMARY:
DYNOMATION= 945/850 Within 2% HP(low) and 6% on TQ(high) Off on peaks by 400rpm HP and TQ
......
.
I just installed a dynomation5 update and opened the file I've been working on to check what I used for collector dimensions.....it' gone from 942hp IIRC to 973. Same file, nothing touched other than the update so it appears Dyn hp has just gone up 3%. I don't see that the torque peak changed much but I didn't have that number memorized and it's hard to read on the screen shot I saved last time I was playing.

anyone else see the same thing?
That was the exact problem I had changing from DM DOS to DM4, and the reason I don't trust DM any more - the new ones read high by a lot -.

Found the old post
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=8998
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