Help with a MILD 440

[twright55]

Wow, lot's of info. Thanks. Let me start by answering your questions:

Do you have the Magnum Cam or stock 440?- both are really lazy

Should be the Magnum cam. This is a '72 HP2 motor. I believe it should be internally balanced (looks to be so by the damper) forged crankshaft motor.

what exhausts do you have- logs or HO/ Magnum style

Short answer...I don't know.
My research tells me they may have used the same manifolds on Magnum motors and regular motors in '72. I don't know if this is true. These manifolds don't stick out like the obvious magnum manifolds from the late 60's. They look like center dump logs to me.

is this Jenson Right hand drive?

No, LHD

Do you have the Magnum or stock converter? what diameter?

I don't know. If there is a different Magnum converter that came with the HP motors in '72, then that is what I should have.

where are you located?

I am in Florida, between Daytona and Orlando, closer to Daytona.

[twright55]

FIRST CLASS- you have to make a head change
IDK if 72 heads have hardened ex valve seats I'don't think so- which heads do you have

I forget the casting number, but they are the fist series of open chamber heads w/o hardened seats.

In order to make a BBM work you need quench
The combustion chamber stock is the worst- low spark plug on one side giving a pancake shaped chamber and trying to ignite it from the side
Cast Iron Heads for stock look
67 heads from any 67- 915-- put in hard seats (durabond) and 1.81 ex and 2.14 intakes
with .500 lift cams I'd go 30 degree seats on the intakes
http://www.victorylibrary.com/graphics/poly/vizard3.jpg
new bronze guide inserts and a nice valve job with a bowl clean up or a pocket port DIY is OK
OR
you can weld up the chambers in your heads if this is a matching number requirement
Speed-O Motive did this

Should I just skip all that and buy 440 Source Stealth aluminum heads? They already have the closed chamber design, larger valves and hardened seats. They look close enough to stock on the outside for my purposes. I'm not worried about having the correct casting numbers on various parts. I just don't want to lose the original serial number stamping on the pad of my block.

you need D-dish 0.0 deck pistons

The problem with zero decking is that will obliterate the original serial# that Jensen stamped on the pad of the block.
I hear you about quench. It's probably going to be my biggest problem. I'm going to have to do a full rebuild w/ bored cylinders* and no decking and hope that the flat top pistons are close enough to the deck to get some quench with a shim head gasket.
*I'm assuming that even if I pull the heads off and find NO bore ridge, that I still should NOT put pistons in with a taller compression height without boring first? Would that be asking for trouble (to put in standard sized pistons with different compression height, even if I can't detect a bore ridge)?
OR
I will have to live with about 8.5:1 CR that I will get with the stock pistons and a closed chambered head...and no quench.

use this Mike Jones cam- there is nothing else even close- except Mikes inverse radius Hyd roller
H440D64307 256° @.006 202°@.050 .307″ cam lift .461″ valve lift with 1.5 rockers or.491″ with 1.6 rockers- which I recommend on the intakes only but ask Mike.
Let Mike pick the exhaust based on your exhaust- let mike pick the compression depending on which combination you use.
gather this information
http://jonescams.com/street-performance/
also in your RPM range get your carb dialed in and ask Mike how much carb you need for your gearing and converter

Yeah, I definitely want to invest in the best cam I can get. I suppose I need to get all the other details worked out in order to give him the info he needs to spec the right cam.

BBM do not like a lot of overlap

Good to know.
The Magnum/HP cam that is in there now is supposed to have 46 degrees of overlap. To me, it 'sounds' just right, and I want it to sound close to stock anyway. Does 46d of overlap on a street 440 sound reasonable to you based on your experience?

post results of compression test and let's see what the basic condition is

Will do.

[PackardV8]

I remember it well. Back when, I had money in hand to buy a bargain in a restored Jensen. It was beautiful and the paint, upholstery and carpets were well redone inside and out and I was in love until I drove it; a complete turd. It didn't seem possible that was a real 440"; no power, no acceleration, 10 MPG and a crude ride besides.

The guy who did buy it built the engine himself along the lines suggested above, added good gas shocks, light aluminum wheels; for another $3500, he had a completely different car.

Even with the 2.88 gears, it will now keep ahead of most traffic and pulled an honest 140 MPH back when that was fast. Still only gets 12 MPG, but it's a blast doing it.

After driving his, personally, I'd have gone with aluminum heads and intake painted stock. The Jensen benefits from the weight removal up front.

My suggestion - come back here with a budget. How much is a real-deal-precision-built-mild 440" worth to you? We've got a couple of forged steel crank core engines which need built for a good home.

[Calypso]

You can bypass the decking by measuring the deck heigth and getting custom compression height pistons. Mike Lewis (wolfplace in this forum) got me racetec customs with very decent deal and has always been very helpful with overseas shipments as well. I'm sure there are others as helpful here, but I just realized I haven't thanked Mike here before.

Now, it would be a good idea to measure the deck height from all corner cylinders to see how even they are.

[wyrmrider]

Thanks for the update
Big changes 71 to 72 and even more 72 to 73-78
compression height on the pistons was dropped and advertised compression
went from 10:1 in 68-69 to 9.7 on 70-71 and 8.2 in 72
That's with the heads at NHRA minimum and they are usually 5cc or so over that stock
so less than 8:1
All open chamber heads are basically the same but porting is slightly different and some have their favorites- none are as good as aftermarket heads even with a mild port job- you have to spend lots of money if you can't DIY
You can't get quench by decking the open chamber heads- you need to change pistons to the KB or others forged can be made
Do you need to retain your stock heads? Ge
Or other cast Iron ok- if so get some 67 915's
Otherwise think Aluminum and paint them to look stealthy
Edelbrocks need a checkup before installation- I do not trust them out of the box or work with one of our posters who could assemble from bare heads with quality known valves and springs
CONVERTER- you have the HP converter- ok for now
Exhaust- check your pipe diamater
2” and smaller non HP 2 ¼ or larger Magnum
The Magnum manifolds rise up the sides of the va.lve covers
If you have ram's horns - center dump they may be same as HD truck- let us know ex pipe size and muffler size
Check the dampner for any sign of counterweight
even with a forged crank the 6 pack cranks has a small external balance due to the Heavy rods
many 440 Magnums also had this crank- a good one- and rods- not necessary- use std 440 rods with Mopar Performance SPS bolts
Pistons for open chamber heads
KB 184 will give you a real 9:1 with 88 cc heads compression height is 1.992 with a .140 quench dome which is on the side away from the plugs
KB 236 real 9.9 with 88 cc head 2.057 compression height- (same as 6 Pack) but with .075 quench dome
here's the drill
check the deck height on all four corners before you disassemble the short block
if it's way off then you have a choice to make about decking-
or as was suggested you can mothball that block and use a different one
sometimes they are WAY off
mag and pressure test the heads if used heads
Install premium Durabond sintered exhaust seats and bronze guide inserts with the spiral for oil
PT again
measure the combustion chamber depth away from the spark plug on all chambers and make notes
mill heads to smallest end chamber depth (other chambers may be different, middle chambers may be different than end chambers but you will be closer

do the valve work and clean up below the bottom cut,
you can port with the Mopar performance templets with stock size valves then install the larger valves and then copy the port for the larger valves
cc the chambers and make all the same when you unshroud the valves
Bore and Hone
Get the pistons first
rebuild the standard 440 rods with the Direct connection bolts- or ARP if you want to spend more
money


put the crank in with old bearings- do not grind the crank unless you absolutely have to
put pistons/ rods in the four corners and check deck heights at TDC
measure quench dome protrusion and figure quench and determine gasket thickness required
you may have to cut the piston domes but not likely if you have not milled the heads and block excessively
If you do decide on closed chamber heads you have to mill off most of the quench bump- Id go with the KB 184
also check KB 237 - which is 6 pack replacement

Edelbrock or IDK about 440 Sourse- ask the forum
I do know you most likely you do NOT want to get Indy heads direct from Indy
as you can see Aluminum heads are a lot less hassle than Iron heads- I'd use Iron heads only on a matching number restoration deal- like a Cuda or superbird
I cn appreciate the serial number issue but what do you do if the block is all catywumpus

Mopar uses a consistent but unique way of giving valve timing, durations, and overlap
you can't compare them with anything else so 46 degrees overlap is meaningless to compare with anything else
Remember the Magnum cam has about a 115 Lobe Center Angle
The long ramps are good for quiet and few warranty claims and overlap is good for EGR type emissions help otherwise you get little of the benefit of the duration while loosing the low end
Ever driven a late 400? They had to use the HP converter and still were dogs till you got them revved up
Compare to a 67-71- like night and day

[BCjohnny]

The axle should be a Salisbury 4HA.

[wyrmrider]

Calypso

How did you set your quench?
"You can bypass the decking by measuring the deck heigth and getting custom compression height pistons. "
IMHO only on a hot rod or race car and super gas

Lot of info on 440 source heads- a lot of it old
get current information
Edelbrock - Stealth- IDK they have to be checked out

[F-BIRD'88]

Do not modify the stock engine at all. Keep it all stock as is.
Lube it up and shrink warp it and store it.

Now build a modern 500cube version of the 440 using a chry 400 block.
10:1cr modern aftermarket heads (Edelbrock RPM or...)
Modern hyd roller cam etc etc.

easy 500 hp.

The stock original engine is only "stock" if you leave it alone. As soon as you mod it its not "stock" any more
So do that. Now you re not limited/crippled by that in building a great street motor for the car.
Its a 4000# car. If you want acceleration put some gears in it. (3.73-4.10)

If you mod the stock motor, you lower the origionality and value of this rare car.
If you keep the motor all stock and build a second motor for it and have BOTH, you retain the origionality
of the car yet unlock the performance.

Keep and store all the accessories too. (air cleaner, whole exhaust system, wheels , tires etc etc)

Installing a modern Chrysler Hemi and matching trans is also a option.

This is how you have your cake and eat it too. Otherwise you are LOWERING the value of the car
to any real car collector $$$$$. All stock is all stock. Do not loose the parts.

[pdq67]

My neighbor right across the street has 440 Interceptor with a 4-speed.

He doesn't drive it at all. He say's it doesn't run right and he figures that it needs a carb rebuild??

Nice car..

pdq67

[wyrmrider]

After reading my last post on Iron head prep you can see why have a half dozen sets of 915s and have not been able to move any in the last 10 years or so except to the matching number crowd (and date codes)
The above advice is good but I like 440 based motors if you are replacing a 440
on the aluminum heads- If you decide to go that route start a new thread specifically asking board members for prep on those heads- I would NOT run out of the box heads- component quality control (cheap), runout, guide clearance issues, bad valve jobs etc some even have cast iron seats instead of hard...
You have to pick a piston with a 6-pack 2.057-2.061 or better compression height 2.067 for quench and a D-Dish for compression ratio, or use the KB Quench dish and mill the dome down- you want to end up with 0.0 to +.010 deck
I've run + .015 when I've had a block that required much milling to get it straight and even- so do NOT order pistons or a rotating assembly till you know where the block will clean up

[Calypso]

How did you set your quench?
"You can bypass the decking by measuring the deck heigth and getting custom compression height pistons. "
IMHO only on a hot rod or race car and super gas

All I'm saying is that if you can't get off the shelf pistons that would be close enough to stock unmachined deck to give reasonable quench, you can get taller custom pistons. If the existing deck heights are not the same across the board without milling, then it still would be a compromise. However, lesser compromise than leaving the pistons deep in the bore. And you could possibly swap rods around as well to fine tune. Expensive way to go about it, but if you want to use what you have and keep the deck untouched ...

[wyrmrider]

Absolutely correct calypso
the big gotcha is if the deck is sloped or canted
I usually mill the open chamber heads end for end to get the two end chambers the same depth then pot luck on the center ones- the relieve around the valves for = CC- I guess I do that on the 915's and earlier too.
As you say down the hole is the worst option or even flat tops at 0 deck like a six pack does not work with today's gas
without converter and gears- not what you want to do with a Jensen or Imperial type build
Think of his trans as a Powerglide with Overdrive with his gears
Most Imperial owners are not happy even with 3:31s out on the highway with a 3 speed TF- so alternative is 518
I run a 518 with 3:54 only because I tow- If I did not tow I'd run 3:31 with the OD and 235-75 15 tires

[twright55]

All I'm saying is that if you can't get off the shelf pistons that would be close enough to stock unmachined deck to give reasonable quench, you can get taller custom pistons. If the existing deck heights are not the same across the board without milling, then it still would be a compromise. However, lesser compromise than leaving the pistons deep in the bore. And you could possibly swap rods around as well to fine tune. Expensive way to go about it, but if you want to use what you have and keep the deck untouched ...

I've actually thought of this as a possibility.
I bought a set of custom Autotec pistons from the same company for my 325 Dodge hemi, so I am familiar with them. Custom pistons thru them are very reasonable. And they have some even more reasonable 'off the shelf' pistons where they will still offer some custom changes at no extra charge..including custom compression height.
I don;t know how sloppy Chrysler was with the decks on their blocks, but If I could all the pistons within */- .005 of each other, perhaps that would be better than nothing?

[twright55]

After reading my last post on Iron head prep you can see why have a half dozen sets of 915s and have not been able to move any in the last 10 years or so except to the matching number crowd (and date codes)
The above advice is good but I like 440 based motors if you are replacing a 440
on the aluminum heads- If you decide to go that route start a new thread specifically asking board members for prep on those heads- I would NOT run out of the box heads- component quality control (cheap), runout, guide clearance issues, bad valve jobs etc some even have cast iron seats instead of hard...

Yeah, I'm convinced
I will be buying a set of alum. Stealth heads. They are probably not the best alum. heads available (in fact, probably the worst).
I saw a flow-bench comparison where they flowed (out of the box) about the same as some mildly ported 906 heads. But they have the closed chamber and they look stock.

[twright55]

without converter and gears- not what you want to do with a Jensen or Imperial type build
Think of his trans as a Powerglide with Overdrive with his gears
Most Imperial owners are not happy even with 3:31s out on the highway with a 3 speed TF- so alternative is 518
I run a 518 with 3:54 only because I tow- If I did not tow I'd run 3:31 with the OD and 235-75 15 tires

Along those lines, I've been doing some research and thinking.
It seems that to change the gears in the Salisbury axle, you can use Dana 44 gears, but you need some other 'conversion hardware' to make it work. So changing the axle ratio, while entirely possible, is not a straight forward task to get the right comb of parts.
Also, this car was original fit with 205/70/15 tires which are 26" (right now the car has 225/70 tires and they really do fill up the wheel wells.) I think when people think of the properties of a given rear axle ratio (e.g. 3.54 or 3.31), they are think in terms of your more typical 28" +/- diameter tire. For example, if you compensate for the diameter difference between your 235/75 tire and a 26" tire, the 2.88 axle ratio will look more like 3.20 to the motor. And from all the reading I've been doing, it seems that most people (like you) seem to prefer the 3.31 axle as ideal for your typical hot street car 440. Some of the earlier Jensens came with a 3.08, and I would think that would be even more ideal. And if I ever get the chance to convert my axle or grab one of those axles, I will. But for practicality's sake, and the fact that it is not as bad as it looks, I think I will just stick with my 2.88 gears. And eventually I need to get 225/60 tires on there, which will be the right diameter and about the max width that will fit without rubbing.