Cam questions for a MILD 440

[CamKing]

Simple answer - If you want a cam that will work for a MOPAR - Call Racer Brown - After 4PM central that is....

If you want something designed in the last 50 years - Call almost anyone else.

[wyrmrider]

WE were involved with testing when the Racer Brown cams 25 years ago
I thought I posted this last night
I still use a RB flat tappet to dial in chassis but there is also an Isky grind that works well
neither are competitive anymore but might work for a long time between teardown bracket motor
not street strip as the durations are way to long for the lift (designed for then springs) or power produced but they are consistent
X2 what cam king said
lots of other grinders in this category-

[travis]

This was a very interesting read, and answered/confirmed some of my thoughts about my existing issue viewtopic.php?f=1&t=43392&start=15

I have the same situation...8.5 compression, a 206/221@.050 cam, on a 115 lsa...in a 4900 pound truck (I do have a little more gear though). Seat timing on my cam is rated at something crazy like 283/304...a 21* difference! I have always prefered single pattern or small split, tighter lsa cams in my heavy, low compression builds...they just seem to work so much better across the board.

Back in the early 90's my parents had a big ol' '77 Dodge chassis motor home...powered by the stock 440/thermoquad setup. That thing was a pinging machine...didn't matter where you put the timing, or what fuel you put in it. We took it up to Yellowstone (from NE Oklahoma). I was waiting for the crank to just fall out on the ground out in the middle of nowhere or the pistons to disintegrate, but it never did. It got 6.5 to 7.2 mpg overall for the whole trip, and that exhaust glowed for sure!

[wyrmrider]

.powered by the stock 440/thermoquad setup.
That thing was a pinging machine..
.didn't matter where you put the timing, or what fuel you put in it.
and that exhaust glowed for sure!


what I've been sayin typical of any low compression 400-440,
BTW does not hve to be truck/ motorhome

[twright55]

Ok, changing gears.

What do you all say about a cam in an aluminum headed 440 with about 10.5/1 cr?
Same 3900lb vehicle w/ 2.88 gears and 26" tires. Any torque convertor is possible since the transmission will be rebuilt and the ideal convertor can be installed at that time. Don't care so much about '60ft times' so much as highway passing...i.e. good flat torque curve around 3000rpm but also a decent idle (like maybe 15" minimum.)
Also, what do you think about hydraulic rollers in a 440? I picked up a used set (Comp) from a reliable source for pretty cheap. I can always resell them easily for what I paid if I don't use them, but I have that option. For reference, I've read about Comp Cams XR274HR-10 (224/230@0.50). From what I've read, It tends to make peak hp @ 6000rpm (too high for me) and has about 12-13" of vacuum in a 10.5cr 440 (which is too low for me.) SO it would definitely have to be smaller than that. But how much smaller? to get peak hp down to 5000-5500 range.

[wyrmrider]

t wright
you got less than .050 quench?
Too much compression for the Jones short hyd
give him a shout about the inverse radius HR grinds

[twright55]

t wright
you got less than .050 quench?

Yes, the plan is to zero deck and then use a 0.040 head gasket.

[wyrmrider]

so you're going with the stelth heads?
Have they been blueprinted or at least gone through
what's the cc
reason I ask is that flat top 0 deck pistons give 6 pack like compression ratios
(which are not as high as advertised unless blueprinted) but still up there
and you get a half point more with closed chambers
so best cc those heads before deciding on pistons
what compression height are you thinking of
6 pack is 2.061 which leaves the piston down some without blueprinting to 0 deck
if you deck the block much then you may want to touch up the intake manifold face
or measure the deck height at all four corners before you remove pistons, minimum deck to get it square and get pistons the right height
several ways to skin that cat
some blocks can be way off as to square so best to measure before teardown, then dbl check the ch of the old pistons
you may be surprised what's in a 40 year old motor
what gas?
cam is going to be fun
you need six pack intake closing point to keep from pinging but could use shorter with those gears

[twright55]

so you're going with the stelth heads?
Have they been blueprinted or at least gone through
what's the cc
reason I ask is that flat top 0 deck pistons give 6 pack like compression ratios
(which are not as high as advertised unless blueprinted) but still up there
and you get a half point more with closed chambers
so best cc those heads before deciding on pistons
what compression height are you thinking of
6 pack is 2.061 which leaves the piston down some without blueprinting to 0 deck
if you deck the block much then you may want to touch up the intake manifold face
or measure the deck height at all four corners before you remove pistons, minimum deck to get it square and get pistons the right height
several ways to skin that cat
some blocks can be way off as to square so best to measure before teardown, then dbl check the ch of the old pistons
you may be surprised what's in a 40 year old motor
what gas?
cam is going to be fun
you need six pack intake closing point to keep from pinging but could use shorter with those gears

The cc of the Stealths is supposed to be 80cc, but in reality, who knows. I'll have to cc them to find out. Just looking at them, I can tell it's going to vary from one end to the other.

As for compression heights, they vary from 2.061 to 2.067 depending on the brand (I think the KBs were 2.061.)
One option is Racetec/Autotec pistons. They will do custom compression height on their 'off the shelf' pistons at no extra charge. Their 4032 forged pistons only come in 1.094 pins, though. Not a big deal, but just a little less weight savings. Like you said, maybe not that important on a 5500rpm motor. Still a heck of a lot lighter than the stockers. One issue with the Autotecs is that they have the smallest valve reliefs at only -3cc. If I assume 0 deck, 0.040 gasket and 80cc heads, then those pistons would put me @ 10.8cr! I think that's over shooting what I am trying to accomplish.

I'll be using pump gas...high test of course. i actually want to keep cr reasonable so that I don't have to worry about gas quality too much. 93 octane is readily available here in Florida, but If I can get it to run on 91, then I'll have that safety margin that is more important to me than a few extra hp.

[wyrmrider]

the 915 "closed chamber" Iron head is 74 blueprinted but usually closer to 80
I opened up around the valves and got 85
I run +.015 out due to very bad block decks taking a lot of milling
but D Dished the TRW 6 pack pistons to lots of cc's to get 9.5 true with .050 gasket (marine gasket)
you may have to mill your heads to even up those two end chambers then you can relieve to equalize all of them
notch/ bevel the top of the intake area on the block down to near the top of ring travel, exhaust does not matter- obviously with pistons in hand
you can ask others with stealth heads if opening up the chambers helps
is the spark plug stock lousy low location or did they move it, I hope
spark plug location is a PITA with stock Mopar BB heads
requires more octane than it should due to lousy flame travel
The 2.067 may be the pistons I helped design for KB back when John Erb was chief engineer
(one of many however I did get a trip to Reno out of it)

[twright55]

the 915 "closed chamber" Iron head is 74 blueprinted but usually closer to 80
I opened up around the valves and got 85
I run +.015 out due to very bad block decks taking a lot of milling
but D Dished the TRW 6 pack pistons to lots of cc's to get 9.5 true with .050 gasket (marine gasket)
you may have to mill your heads to even up those two end chambers then you can relieve to equalize all of them
notch/ bevel the top of the intake area on the block down to near the top of ring travel, exhaust does not matter- obviously with pistons in hand
you can ask others with stealth heads if opening up the chambers helps
is the spark plug stock lousy low location or did they move it, I hope
spark plug location is a PITA with stock Mopar BB heads
requires more octane than it should due to lousy flame travel
The 2.067 may be the pistons I helped design for KB back when John Erb was chief engineer
(one of many however I did get a trip to Reno out of it)

I double checked and the KB pistons are at 2.067, like you said.
I just heard back from Racetec and their 'street' pistons are $570 and include custom compression height. They use 1.094 pins like the KBs.
The only way to get .990 pins is to go with a 2618 alloy piston. I think I will stick with the KB hypers or the Autotec 4032 alloy for about $130 more. Either way will be 1.094 pins, so maybe I will just reuse my factory rods after all. Aftermarket rods with the 1.094 pins are actually MORE expensive than the same rods with .990 pins.

The advantage of the Autotec pistons over the KBs is about 80g lighter, custom compression height (less block milling) and 1/16" rings.
The advantage of the KBs is $130 cheaper and a 9cc reliefs vs the 3cc reliefs for the Autotecs, which will LOWER my compression about 0.6cr...which might actually be a GOOD thing, depending on the camshaft I go with and where the heads end up at.
So I think the compression ratio I want to end up at is the over-riding issue and will decide which set of pistons I purchase.

[wyrmrider]

yep
spend the $130 unshrouding the valves or doing the guides and seats
blending the step etc

[twright55]

Well, I cc'd the 440Soure Stealth heads today.
One head varied from 79cc on one end and gradually increased to 81.5 at the other.
The other head was remarkably even going from 80 to 80.5
So once I get the machinist to even the one head up, and mill the other head to match, I imagine I'll end up somewhere around 78cc.

Is there any real value to polishing the combustion chambers (to reflect combustion heat back into the chamber) or should I not bother and just leave the cast surface (for aluminum heads)? This is something I would do myself so it won't cost me any money...just time.

[twright55]

Another question:
I'd like to pick a cam before I finalize my compression ratio. Any recommendations, either specific or general duration/overlap ranges I should be looking for, or specific valve events?
Still a 3900lb car w/ 2.88 gears and 26" tire w/ a torqueflite. Not a drag racer, so 60ft times are not as important as midrange torque. Hydraulic roller or hydraulic flat tappet (but would prefer an HR since I have those lifters already.) I can buy the appropriate torque converter at a later date because the transmission will need rebuilding anyway further down the road. But I've notice that cruising on the type of roads I will be cruising on, the rpms are around 2000 +/-, so I probably wouldn't want anything too loose. For passing and general acceleration 'fun', I'd be kicking it down into second which would probably put me around 3000rpm. I don't mind a slightly 'noticeable idle', but I want to keep it pretty tame.

Any general guidance or even specific would be helpful.

[wyrmrider]

http://jonescams.com/street-performance/
for a Hyd Flat Tappet Jones H440D64307
256° @.006 202°@.050 .307″lobe .461″ valve lift with 1.5 There simply is no other lobe that compares with this one anywhere
ask Mike about exhaust lobe, LCA ICL and if a 1.6 rocker would help if you are going to buy rockers
for Hyd roller fill out request card and let mike pick profiles and then
for both mike will tell you what CR to pick with those heads and quench be sure and specify and head flows if you have them, spec exhaust and intake, springs
you can not beat Mikes inverse radius HR profiles
spec your HR wheel diameter and vendor