Looking for a few tips on porting 351c 4v heads

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

Moderator: Team

Post Reply
cjperformance
Guru
Guru
Posts: 2532
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2008 7:20 am
Location: South Australia

Re: Looking for a few tips on porting 351c 4v heads

Post by cjperformance » Fri Jun 12, 2015 7:53 am

Well that got the heat off of those darn aussies that copied the A3's ! :lol:
Craig.

User avatar
Kazoom
Pro
Pro
Posts: 254
Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2010 3:28 am
Location: Cal AB CND

Re: Looking for a few tips on porting 351c 4v heads

Post by Kazoom » Fri Jun 12, 2015 8:59 am

cjperformance wrote:Im kind of wondering why the constant reference to the 'aussie copy' ?
Is the A3 the holy grail of clevo heads!? Can there be no other head ever made for a clevo that could possibly be better than the A3 :lol: without being referenced back as a 'copy' !
Everyone got ideas from everywhere else for any given product.
There is misinformation on forums about what aussie/3v heads really are so just wanted to make it clear for those that dont know that the aussie "3V" head is basicly a newer Copy of the old American A3,B,C SVO head,
Image
as was the aussie 3V/4V parker Copy intake which was Originaly made by Roush and Edelbrock years before
for the American SVO head.
Image

groberts101
Guru
Guru
Posts: 1301
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2008 3:08 pm
Location: Minneapolis

Re: Looking for a few tips on porting 351c 4v heads

Post by groberts101 » Fri Jun 12, 2015 9:34 am

Kazoom wrote:There is misinformation on forums about what aussie/3v heads really are so just wanted to make it clear for those that dont know that the aussie "3V" head is basicly a Copy of the old American SVO head, as was the aussie 3V/4V parker Copy intake which was Originaly made by Roush and Edelbrock years before for the American SVO head.
Image
Yes there is.. and it keeps getting perpetuated even further along as every new day goes by. And not to try and poke holes or start a whole new "who copied what.. and when" debate about the intakes for this engine platform.. but that is most certainly incorrect info about that specific manifold being copied by Parker. I know this for fact because I've personally ported that Parker intake and can tell you without a doubt that the MS/Roush manifold is no where near the same. Well.. aside from being a taller single-4 spider type design, is all. The Parker's taller.. runners are taller/thinner and have bigger port taper from start to finish.. and CSA is also bigger without even getting into the carb pad and plenum design aspects. Much closer to a newer Super Vic type design than that MS/Roush design you posted above.

As for who copied what head?.. well.. don't rightly know for sure how that timeline went but I do know that it get's pretty damned tricky to make something symmetrically ported that's entirely new for a 90° V type motor without copying at least some or many aspects of a previous design. Probably have to go back a fair bit further than that old mystery motor to find it too. So, technically speaking.. everything relating to the 2 valve stuff is just a newer copy of something old.

User avatar
Kazoom
Pro
Pro
Posts: 254
Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2010 3:28 am
Location: Cal AB CND

Re: Looking for a few tips on porting 351c 4v heads

Post by Kazoom » Fri Jun 12, 2015 1:42 pm

groberts101 wrote: Yes there is.. and it keeps getting perpetuated even further along as every new day goes by. And not to try and poke holes or start a whole new "who copied what.. and when" debate about the intakes for this engine platform.. but that is most certainly incorrect info about that specific manifold being copied by Parker. I know this for fact because I've personally ported that Parker intake and can tell you without a doubt that the MS/Roush manifold is no where near the same. Well.. aside from being a taller single-4 spider type design, is all. The Parker's taller.. runners are taller/thinner and have bigger port taper from start to finish.. and CSA is also bigger without even getting into the carb pad and plenum design aspects. Much closer to a newer Super Vic type design than that MS/Roush design you posted above.

As for who copied what head?.. well.. don't rightly know for sure how that timeline went but I do know that it get's pretty damned tricky to make something symmetrically ported that's entirely new for a 90° V type motor without copying at least some or many aspects of a previous design. Probably have to go back a fair bit further than that old mystery motor to find it too. So, technically speaking..

>>>everything relating to the 2 valve stuff is just a newer copy of something old.<<<
Well said and the truth of this matter.

you are also correct about changes in intakes, was refering to the port application of the aussie intake.
Image
btw, i heard the canted valve bbc/clev head design originaly came from Chrysler lol #-o

or was it Volvo?

cjperformance
Guru
Guru
Posts: 2532
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2008 7:20 am
Location: South Australia

Re: Looking for a few tips on porting 351c 4v heads

Post by cjperformance » Fri Jun 12, 2015 5:10 pm

Lol, geez i recon the person who started all this copying was the 'second' 'inventor' of the wheel ! :lol:
But yes, it was definetly volvo that started it all !
I think that a copy is exactly that, a pretty much exact replica of another peoduct that is branded by another person/company as their own with no r&d work.
When someone like Parker (just using this name as an example) sees a single plane intake for example and thinks , cool idea but i can do it better or differently and then puts in the effort to 'improve' or 'change substantially' the basic layout of the item that spurred the idea, then im nkt so sure you can label this as a 'copy'.
Craig.

Bos's5.0
Pro
Pro
Posts: 250
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2005 12:25 pm
Location: SLC, UT

Re: Looking for a few tips on porting 351c 4v heads

Post by Bos's5.0 » Fri Jun 12, 2015 5:54 pm

I met a person who swears every engine spec ever measured was sourced from a Mopar.

RL
Guru
Guru
Posts: 1252
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2007 6:46 am
Location: Sid-den-knee, Australia

Re: Looking for a few tips on porting 351c 4v heads

Post by RL » Fri Jun 12, 2015 6:05 pm

Yeah, the Parker is pretty different internally to the Roush.

The SVO and Roush are racing equipment, so are not really suitable for the street, so the 3V and Parker are different internally to suit a different application.

Just because the externals look close doesn't mean it's just a direct copy. Some people copy, but why copy something when you know how to make it better, that's more an evolution.

You can get heads with many different port runner volumes, so is the one close to the cc's of and earlier head a copy, and the others not a copies.

I think the 3V's are more a copy of the original iron head, but with a shrunken down Prostock port - the guy helping development was a Prostock engine builder -, so the the port could even be a Mopar variant.

It's the ports and chamber that should be copyrighted, because the external part of the head is just a locating device.

cjperformance
Guru
Guru
Posts: 2532
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2008 7:20 am
Location: South Australia

Re: Looking for a few tips on porting 351c 4v heads

Post by cjperformance » Fri Jun 12, 2015 6:33 pm

Bos's5.0 wrote:I met a person who swears every engine spec ever measured was sourced from a Mopar.
Yeah I've met some kooky Mopar dudes before too :lol:
Ive met kooky dudes from all parks of life but I have to say i have met some quite odd Mopar fans over the years!
Craig.

cjperformance
Guru
Guru
Posts: 2532
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2008 7:20 am
Location: South Australia

Re: Looking for a few tips on porting 351c 4v heads

Post by cjperformance » Fri Jun 12, 2015 6:34 pm

RL wrote:Yeah, the Parker is pretty different internally to the Roush.

The SVO and Roush are racing equipment, so are not really suitable for the street, so the 3V and Parker are different internally to suit a different application.

Just because the externals look close doesn't mean it's just a direct copy. Some people copy, but why copy something when you know how to make it better, that's more an evolution.

You can get heads with many different port runner volumes, so is the one close to the cc's of and earlier head a copy, and the others not a copies.

I think the 3V's are more a copy of the original iron head, but with a shrunken down Prostock port - the guy helping development was a Prostock engine builder -, so the the port could even be a Mopar variant.

It's the ports and chamber that should be copyrighted, because the external part of the head is just a locating device.
X2
Well said
Craig.

RL
Guru
Guru
Posts: 1252
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2007 6:46 am
Location: Sid-den-knee, Australia

Re: Looking for a few tips on porting 351c 4v heads

Post by RL » Fri Jun 12, 2015 9:52 pm

Kazoom wrote:not an issue, only need to cut a min 1/8" wide flat spot for alum plate to sit on, high temp fillers like Pyro Putty can also used in left over old exh port filling/sealing it up under the hi-port plate.
RL wrote: Look at the 3V exh, it isn't raised, yet it's a better head.
also forgot to mention that yes it is raised, there is only just over a 1/4" difference in top of exh port heights
between the American original hi-port mod and my Avg aussie "3V" Copy.
Image
btw, that is a 2" diameter pipe sitting over the Avenger exh port.
It really needs to be compared it to an old iron 2V - just scaling cjperformance picture, because I don't have a head with me at the moment, the 2V is approx 90mm to the top of the port, the same as in the pic -.

I suppose they were hi-ports compared to 50's stuff, but the term Hi-port used with the old 4V isn't actually a high port, at least not by today's standards, it's just a term to discern the modification. If you look at some modern exh ports they are straight and vertical, with the turn in the pipe.

I''ll give you my reasoning why I don't think the hi-port is a great modification, using an actual example.
The std irov 2V exh port can be ported to 225cfm.
2 - 4V hi-ports came in that were done by someone else and one flowed 221cfm(worse), and one flowed 231cfm(slightly more).
Knowing this I had to make mine extreme, hence why mine is so high, and I got 253cfm@0.700" - it's probably something like ½" higher than your old hi-port mod head -.
Conclusion, a lot of work for a small gain.

Image[/quote]

Bos's5.0
Pro
Pro
Posts: 250
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2005 12:25 pm
Location: SLC, UT

Re: Looking for a few tips on porting 351c 4v heads

Post by Bos's5.0 » Fri Jun 12, 2015 10:06 pm

.........That is awesome.

cjperformance
Guru
Guru
Posts: 2532
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2008 7:20 am
Location: South Australia

Re: Looking for a few tips on porting 351c 4v heads

Post by cjperformance » Fri Jun 12, 2015 10:29 pm

And then you need the room to make pipes that will complement the hiport mod !!
Craig.

User avatar
Kazoom
Pro
Pro
Posts: 254
Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2010 3:28 am
Location: Cal AB CND

Re: Looking for a few tips on porting 351c 4v heads

Post by Kazoom » Sat Jun 13, 2015 11:17 am

cjperformance wrote:Lol, geez i recon the person who started all this copying was the 'second' 'inventor' of the wheel ! :lol:.
hey we all know you aussies Copyed that from the American Original too :wink: .
Image
cjperformance wrote:
Bos's5.0 wrote:I met a person who swears every engine spec ever measured was sourced from a Mopar.
Yeah I've met some kooky Mopar dudes before too :lol:
Ive met kooky dudes from all parks of life but I have to say i have met some quite odd Mopar fans over the years!
next to the cheavy guys some mopar guys are Way stranger :lol:, i got personal experience :roll: .

User avatar
Kazoom
Pro
Pro
Posts: 254
Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2010 3:28 am
Location: Cal AB CND

Re: Looking for a few tips on porting 351c 4v heads

Post by Kazoom » Sat Jun 13, 2015 12:15 pm

RL wrote: It really needs to be compared it to an old iron 2V - just scaling cjperformance picture, because I don't have a head with me at the moment, the 2V is approx 90mm to the top of the port, the same as in the pic -.

I suppose they were hi-ports compared to 50's stuff, but the term Hi-port used with the old 4V isn't actually a high port, at least not by today's standards, it's just a term to discern the modification. If you look at some modern exh ports they are straight and vertical, with the turn in the pipe.

I''ll give you my reasoning why I don't think the hi-port is a great modification, using an actual example.
The std irov 2V exh port can be ported to 225cfm.
2 - 4V hi-ports came in that were done by someone else and one flowed 221cfm(worse), and one flowed 231cfm(slightly more).
Knowing this I had to make mine extreme, hence why mine is so high, and I got 253cfm@0.700" - it's probably something like ½" higher than your old hi-port mod head -.
Conclusion, a lot of work for a small gain.
no, the "3V" aussie Copy exh port must be compared to the old SVO head as the old iron 2V head exh port height is no higher than the iron 4V, the aussie "3V" copy and A3-b-c are much closer to each other.
Image

also the 4V cc Hi-port mod was done by Every American P/S racer that was serious about winning as FORD them selfs stated it was good/dynoed for a MINIMUM of 20+HP (heard some getting over 30+HP), 4V cc was the TOP DOG p/s cleveland head so mod is more than a small gain, NONE of them were waisting time or money with the inferior 2V head.
Image
the Hi-port mod may not be for every build but it is still a great mod for some guys that want to take there old iron 4V heads to the next level.
Last edited by Kazoom on Sat Jun 13, 2015 12:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

cjperformance
Guru
Guru
Posts: 2532
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2008 7:20 am
Location: South Australia

Re: Looking for a few tips on porting 351c 4v heads

Post by cjperformance » Sat Jun 13, 2015 12:22 pm

Kazoom wrote:
cjperformance wrote:Lol, geez i recon the person who started all this copying was the 'second' 'inventor' of the wheel ! :lol:.
hey we all know you aussies Copyed that from the American Original too :wink: .
Image
cjperformance wrote:
Bos's5.0 wrote:I met a person who swears every engine spec ever measured was sourced from a Mopar.
Yeah I've met some kooky Mopar dudes before too :lol:
Ive met kooky dudes from all parks of life but I have to say i have met some quite odd Mopar fans over the years!
next to the cheavy guys some mopar guys are Way stranger :lol:, i got personal experience :roll: .
Hey that Flint mobile needs a hiport 4V conversion with 6' long Munster zoomies!
Craig.

Post Reply