Vizard 427 SBF Rear Main Seal Dilemma

[David Vizard]

Guys,

I have a problem that I have fixated on for at least the last two months.

I realize that most of you are aware that in essence my job is to put engines together and then report on what and how it was done along with dyno test results. Sure these are the basic elements involved but the reality is that there is far more to it than that ----- or at least there is when I do the job.
Getting poor, indifferent or even plain bad advice is easy. I work very hard to be as far away for the purveyors of such advice as possible. That is why I set up a shop and equipped it with almost a 1/3 of a million bucks of equipment in 1980’s money. Can you even imagine how many hours work I had to put in to cover the costs of such on a tech writers income??

What I am trying to say here is that it has always been my intent to show a reader how to build the best engine possible within whatever constraints may be in force. That is not a better engine than Joe Blogs the plumber down the road but better than at least 95% of the pro engine builders out there. How can I be sure such a claim is being met in any worthwhile degree? I fully realize that some people may think that a brash and possibly unrealistic goal for a writer so I will say it once again I am not a journalist but a professional engineer focusing on high performance engines. My best year ever as a race engine builder netted a combined 169 first places, pole positions, fastest race lap, track records and championship wins from just 8 engines. Breaking that down a little more that was 5 national championships with two of them coming from a 100% win record (my 1600 cc sedan racer and a DV power Ford Anglia dirt car very convincingly cleaned up in closed circuit off road racing.

So why am I bringing all this up – is it just to brag? Well maybe a little but the real reason is that I am attempting to convince a bunch of ST members to support me toward finding some more HP from the 427 SB Ford build I am doing. As I said part of my job is to show some hopefully better ways to get a job like this done. But it carries some pretty hefty responsibilities. When doing an engine build and writing it up the results become very much public knowledge. That said , I certainly don’t want to join the indifferent results brigade that write so many of today’s articles.
Let me explain in detail here. This 427 build is to showcase DSS’s 427 kit. A such they have invested about $3000 in my engine building skills and I am, as usual, in no mind to let them down. Also there are the guys from TFS who are expecting me to show just how good their heads are so they are into this build for well over a couple of grand. Next on the list is our very own Chris Straub who provided a top of the line hydraulic roller cam valve train. Again a stout four figure investment. Then there is Holley, Moroso, Edelbrock, MSD and so it goes on.

There are a lot of smart engine builders out there and to keep up with them let alone surpass any is a tough job. That’s a challenge I have to face on a daily basis just to stay in business. This means that I cannot in all honesty let a single hp slip from my grasp if I know how it can be had. Some I know will ask if I really do lose sleep over a horsepower or so. You bet I do. And this leads me to the rear main seal on my 427 DSS/TFS/ Straub industries (etc.) SB Ford build – the whole point of this – for me- is a desperate bid to get a new oil seal into production so I can have 2-3 more flywheel HP for this project.
As many of you may suspect I do have a little more than the average passing acquaintance with the worlds of F1 and the top NASCAR series. About 8-10 years ago I met an English engineer who specialized in dynamic seals (ie front and rear crank seals and the like) after an initial test I found his products to be so good that I told all of those I know in the highest echelons of motor racing. Today virtually all the F1 cars use these seals as do the majority of the top teams in NASCAR. Why because they are outstanding. My friend Chris Gregory’s company in the UK is GST (Greg Seal Technology). To get into the market over here he had to stick his financial neck out and finance what was likely to be a popular seal out of his own pocket. So he asked me which ---???
Well you know it had to be a SB Chevy, this was then followed by a SBF 8.2 tall block then a seal for a BBC.

I really liked these seals because A) a one piece Greg Seal fits in any two piece seal block with no (that means zero) block or adaptor mods. B) the seals have almost zero friction (about 20 to as low as 10% of a typical seal) C) they are so slippery that it takes over 20,000 miles just to wear the faintest line on the cranks seal diameter. They typically seal at least 2 inches mercury better (sometimes up to 4) than any other seals I have tried. They allow a higher pan vacuum to be generated with less scavenge stage capacity.

Now – if you are still with me here is my plea.

I want a seal for the back end of my DSS 427 – I do not want to put a seal on with a 2/3 lbs/ft static and up to 3 lbs-ft dynamic of drag when there is a company that came make one with way less than a ¼ lb-ft of drag. The problem is that for me to get just one seal Chris Gregory needs to cover tooling costs and that would entail a run of 200 seals. I have to tell you these seals are not cheap but they are the best and for what it is worth almost half the price of the Signal seal I often use.. At about $34 apiece I need to round up sales for another 199 as well as the one I want. I am trying to look after my fellow hot rodders/engine builders here but this is one time were I need some commitment that at least matches my own in my attempts to bring the best tech to you all.

If you want seals for the 302 style SBF or a two piece seal SB Chevy, BB Chevy or LS engines, then email Terry Walters precision engines at http://www.Walters Engines.net or call him at his Roanoke VA shop on 540-774-8605.
If it is a SBF 351 Windsor and you are supporting my efforts here to get a seal made then email Chris Gregory at ccgg1000@gmail.com or call his UK shop on (044 country code) 7717 534027. He needs a bunch of committed sales here so he can commit to the tooling costs.
I hope you will support me as I really want to crack the 650 hp and more importantly 600 lbs-ft mark with this 427 build – on 87 octane fuel!

DV

[turdwilly]

I would definitely be in but I'm projecting assembly of the short block on my Dart block 427 in the next couple of weeks (depending on how long the machine shop takes to hone my lifter bores) & I know that's not a realistic time frame for one of these seals to happen. Now if it could happen in the next couple of months, I could always wait to put the seal in after the fact & before the engine goes in the chassis, but I would think that is still probably too soon?

[David Vizard]

Guys,
The ball is beginning to roll on the 351 seals. Please don't leave this to the 'other" guy! Remember I am trying to put info in my books that benefits everyone (including the top pro's). You can help shape the content of this next book and I am near desperate for these 351 seals.

BTW Chris @ Greg Seals will also count sales to ST posters of 3 of every one of his other seals as a 1 count 351 contribution toward the tooling cost of the 351 seals. To see the current range go to waltersengines.com. and includes SB & BB Chevy, LS motors SB Ford 8.2 deck height plus a few more. For many of these engines a front timing cover seal is also available. And should any of you have cup car engines originating from any of the primary teams then Chris will have the seals for that although I suspect that non of those he has supplied in the last three years are anywhere near worn out.

DV

[va454ss]

Not finding the rear main seals on his website.

[turdwilly]

3 different websites, one doesn't work, the other 2 - no seals.

[turdwilly]

Mr Vizard,

I have attempted to sent you a PM twice in the last few days on this, but for some reason they just sit in my outbox & then eventually disappear.

I am indeed interested in the seal. I'm not looking for that last couple of HP like you are, but I am building a Dart SHP block 427W for a friend's street car, & I'm interested in a top-notch seal for longevity/sealing properties. I'm also interested in a front seal if available.

The only problem is that I'm planning on assembling the short block as soon as the machine shop finishes honing the lifter bores - hopefully in the next couple of weeks. I could of course just leave the seals out & put them in before final long block assembly, or before it goes in the chassis, which will be a couple of months down the road.

That's not a realistic time frame since the seal is only in the planning stages, but if it's possible, please let me know. If it's not, could you give me the part numbers for the Signal front & rear seals that you like?

Thanks,
-Tim

[needforspeed66gt]

If you're talking about a one piece seal alternative to the felpro 2921 as used in the Cleveland main Dart SHP blocks I could be in for a few initially.

[David Vizard]

Mr Vizard,

I have attempted to sent you a PM twice in the last few days on this, but for some reason they just sit in my outbox & then eventually disappear.

I am indeed interested in the seal. I'm not looking for that last couple of HP like you are, but I am building a Dart SHP block 427W for a friend's street car, & I'm interested in a top-notch seal for longevity/sealing properties. I'm also interested in a front seal if available.

The only problem is that I'm planning on assembling the short block as soon as the machine shop finishes honing the lifter bores - hopefully in the next couple of weeks. I could of course just leave the seals out & put them in before final long block assembly, or before it goes in the chassis, which will be a couple of months down the road.

That's not a realistic time frame since the seal is only in the planning stages, but if it's possible, please let me know. If it's not, could you give me the part numbers for the Signal front & rear seals that you like?

Thanks,
-Tim

I have just spent the last 30 mins trying to read your PM's. My file is full but for some reason I cannot get the deletions necessary to read new ones.

Can you post your questoions or do they have tpo go as PM's or are they as per the above post?
DV

[David Vizard]

If you're talking about a one piece seal alternative to the felpro 2921 as used in the Cleveland main Dart SHP blocks I could be in for a few initially.

Email that to Chris at Greg seals - ccgg1000@gmail.com so he can put you on the list.
thanks
DV

[David Vizard]

3 different websites, one doesn't work, the other 2 - no seals.

Email Terry Walters at TWPS@aol.com with your needs or if you know you want a 351 RM seal email Chris at ccgg1000@gmail.com

[turdwilly]

Mr Vizard,

I have attempted to sent you a PM twice in the last few days on this, but for some reason they just sit in my outbox & then eventually disappear.

I am indeed interested in the seal. I'm not looking for that last couple of HP like you are, but I am building a Dart SHP block 427W for a friend's street car, & I'm interested in a top-notch seal for longevity/sealing properties. I'm also interested in a front seal if available.

The only problem is that I'm planning on assembling the short block as soon as the machine shop finishes honing the lifter bores - hopefully in the next couple of weeks. I could of course just leave the seals out & put them in before final long block assembly, or before it goes in the chassis, which will be a couple of months down the road.

That's not a realistic time frame since the seal is only in the planning stages, but if it's possible, please let me know. If it's not, could you give me the part numbers for the Signal front & rear seals that you like?

Thanks,
-Tim

I have just spent the last 30 mins trying to read your PM's. My file is full but for some reason I cannot get the deletions necessary to read new ones.

Can you post your questoions or do they have tpo go as PM's or are they as per the above post?
DV

The content of my post above is actually the same as my PM - I just C&P'd it.

[900HP]

This product would be worth having, I sincerely hope you are able to bring it to market. You see this sort of thing at Engine Masters where all of the little things add up. Friction is always the enemy.

[Stef]

I've met Greg a couple of times and he's a nice bloke. His seals are used on a lot of top end race engines over here. I would recommend his seals if you building a max effort engine. Exchange rate is good now too lol

[David Vizard]

I remember recently reading through a ST post concerning the rotational drag on a 500 inch Pro-stock build. the poster was commenting on how important the ring selection was as the difference between 'regular' rings and skinny 0.022 Pro-stock rings was a bunch. The turning torque was I believe quoted for this and a pretty low figure it turned out to be. Then it all got spoiled when the poster said that these figures were without the super tight high drag seal required to hold up against the 22 inch vacuum drawn on the pan.

Please note the drag on a Greg seal is best measured in ounce/inches. No names here but one very well known circle track engine builders optimized back to back tests showed a 9 hp difference in favor of the Greg seal. I guess that's why just about every NASCAR engine has them
DV
Still need you guys to support my drive here. We are making progress but still not there yet.

[lefty o]

mr Vizard, you have my curiosity peaked, so i have to ask. how is the long term durability with these low drag seals?