MPG and this winters modifications

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80427
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MPG and this winters modifications

Post by 80427 »

So I posted here a little when I was in last semester of engineer college when I was working on my Holley on my 84 K10.

So after school I was looking for something semi cool to daily drive when a buddy informed me he was selling the 74 Malibu 4 door he had purchased from his aunt. Though not as cool as I had previously envisioned it is a 30k mile car with a L-65.
13.
So since my new job is 45 miles away I put on 90 miles a day. Though mpg isn't top of the list it is a concern. So after driving a few weeks to get a baseline of 13.3-13.4 I decided to do some modifications in an attempt to get the mpg better. First I used some of my advance springs to tailor the timing curve to be quite a bit quicker than the garage door springs the points dist came with from the factory. The closest I could get to the "all in by 2500" typically suggested was all in by 2800. The intial was set at 10 intial and 26 mech advance and 14 deg of vac. No real mileage gains but the power was much better.

Getting some tips from a old 2g post by Tuner, I bought a 74 version of the Doug Roe book that included modifications for the 2gc. I eliminated the APT and reduced the power valve restriction by .010 to .035, initially clipped the power valve 3 coils. Ran much crisper but seemed to gain a lean surge. I upped the jetting to 50s from 49s and the surge was better but not gone. Thinking I might be feeling the power valve fluttering I cut another coil off the power valve. Much worse. Finally I got off my lazy butt and welded in my O2 bung and hooked up my LM-2. The lean surge I felt was the carb going into the 20s. So I put in the 53 jets I had from a spare 2g and the air fuel was better but still into the 20s at high vac cruising. Finally I drilled out my original 49s to 55s. Now it cruises in the high 16s to the high 15s most of the time with it touching into the 18s in high vac cruising on a few cool mornings. Pulling hills it gets into the 15s and into the 14s starting about 6 in.hg then into the 12s. I feel this is really close to optimal from mpg.

How is the mpg now? Well after doing the initial mods during the lean surge time it gained 1.25 mpg to 14.5-14.75 mpg. Now after jetting? Back to 13.6 mpg.

I have added more initial timing to 12 intial, which added a lot of low end but no change in mpg.

The current car is a stock 30k 2bbl 350 with 993 heads, stock single exhaust, manifolds, single snorkel air cleaner, fresh tune up and a compression test showing 161-168psi. Stock th350 and 2.73 geared rear with 26.6" rear tires.

Though the ultimate goal is a 505 big block with a 5 speed, to get caught up on debt I am going to budget modify the stock 350.
I was given a set of 1 5/8 headers, performer intake, 85-86 truck q-jet, a new cam 214/224 112lca cam and a set of 3.23 gears . I have a posi with 3.08s left over from my h.s. camaro. I also plan on adding 12" front disks and s-10 rear disks along with a bigger front swap bar. I will add duals that will be too big at 3" but I am only doing exhaust once and there is already a 289 block 454 in my garage waiting on my budget to build.

Anyway, thinking mid 13s is pretty meh, am I going to really be disappointed in it next spring? Despite my carb being tuned to what I think is a great a/f for mpg and power, is the qjet just that much better that it will make a magic 4 mpg better?

Sorry for the long post as usual.

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Re: MPG and this winters modifications

Post by bigjoe1 »

Thirty or more years ago, I went through this same deal with my father.I will tell you this, It is almost impossible to gain more than one MPG when you have the original stuff running very well. Manifolds and carburetors did not even gain ONE MPG.. The only thing that made a noticeable improvement was when I put an eight degree advance bushing on the stock cam,shaft. His car was an brand new 1974 El Camino, with the low po 2 barrel 350 engine. I did forget to mention that going fro a single exhaust to dual exhaust was a one good improvement.It was a 2.56 rear end gear, and the car was 4250 with out a driver.He got up around 14 to 15 MPG in town driving, and would get 19 to 20 on lond drive at 75 miles per hour.



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Re: MPG and this winters modifications

Post by ap72 »

A somewhat budget solution that will show real gains- swap to a tpi fuel injection setup and tune it on microsquirt. It'll probably be about a $750 job even with used parts but it will show real improvement.
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Re: MPG and this winters modifications

Post by Sir Yun »

Get an old c class Merc t-diesel for the commute :) 35mpg average over the last 8k miles at 80-85 mph average (plus the odd 120+). Fit a 550 to the old wagon :wink:
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80427
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Re: MPG and this winters modifications

Post by 80427 »

I guess to make myself clear I am happy with how it runs currently and though a tpi swap or a diesel would help that would require more time and money than I am willing to invest in mpg.

I even though maybe my wide band was calibrated wrong but when I took it out of the pipe it was a nice white gray and so was the pipe I'd.

Maybe I just expect too much, I mean it does run way better and the mpg isn't worse. Oh well even if the winter mods drop the mpg to 12, it will certainly run harder though the 5 speed swap may come before the big block.

The car is 4160lbs,. I guess I just thought it should be better mpg than my 383 4x4 truck I spent so much time on but it does have overdrive and Headers/dual exhaust.
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Re: MPG and this winters modifications

Post by Circlotron »

Assuming it has a HEI, open the plug gaps to 60 thou / 1.5mm. Won't cost a thing and if there is some downside just put them back to where they were. May help some of that lean surge.
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Re: MPG and this winters modifications

Post by 80427 »

It has points. One of the things I have thought about doing is buying a micro squirt so I can build a fully programmable ignitions system. I guess part of keeping a carb even when I move to a big block is the fact that one of my good friends runs a shop and has a chassis dyno. He beats the fuel injection drum pretty hard. My goal, as always is to prove I can do it with a carb, be it mpg or hp or both. Eventually the big block may get fuel injection, but since no factory parts will work, it will require a large investment using all aftermarket parts.
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Re: MPG and this winters modifications

Post by rfoll »

When I got my low mile "79 impala, the motor ran well and I intended to leave it alone. Unfortunately, it got 14 mpg freeway with a 2.41 rear gear. I put a set of 64 cc/1.72 valve(pocket ported), 305 heads on with a standard Edelbrock Performer 2101, and fuel economy jumped to 18. The main difference between your engine and mine is that mine came with a QJ from the factory. These are no compression engines. A set of the 58 cc 1.84 valve 305 heads will really wake it up. Vortec heads work better, but the need for carb heat for cold weather complicates things, and the manifold is more expensive. An Edelbrock 2101 can be had for as little as $25 at a swap meet. Be careful to do the math when spending money to gain fuel economy.
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Re: MPG and this winters modifications

Post by 80427 »

I was going to change the cylinder heads but I don't want to start down that road. I know what happens and soon I would be rebuilding the engine. I want to improve what I can on this long block and work towards overdrive and a new engine.

Like I said I have a performer and q jet that were given to me so there is really only time and some gaskets for most of the mods I have planned.

Though I am keeping the current heads I plan on only driving this in the summer and driving a truck the rest of the year so intake heat isn't needed but will be kept for fuel mpg.

Trust me I learned spending money for MPG is largely hard to justify. I was a service manager at a dealership and so many times if I told someone that a needed repair/service was $500+, half of the people would say they were just going to trade it and the increased mpg from a new car would cover the payment. This is hardly ever really justified.

What do you mean no compression? It has a whole 8.5 to one listed as the spec! That is at least .25 more than the lm1 you had and about .5 more than a new goodwrench 350!

Just kidding. I know this if far from a performance or even optimally built engine for nearly anything.
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Re: MPG and this winters modifications

Post by user-612937456 »

Wouldn't it be nice to spend $1500 and a week of messing arroung on a 5.3 or 4.8 ls swap to get 18-24 MPG.
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Re: MPG and this winters modifications

Post by 80427 »

I just finished a 5.3 swap in my brothers 71 cutlass. It runs great but they just aren't my thing. Lots of my friends drag race turbo LS in light little mustangs and I am over here with a 3800 lb Camaro with a 427 big block and a boat load of nitrous running 6.20s. I tend to march to the beat of a different drummer.
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Re: MPG and this winters modifications

Post by user-612937456 »

How about vortec Iron heads with flat top pistons with .035-.040 quench for an efficient combustion chamber with an efficient roller camshaft (maybe arround 210/218 @.050, 108 LSA, and .465 lift) along with a Vortec EdelBrock Performer, with an afb style carburetor, and a corrected advanced curved HEI distributor, shorty headers and quiet 2" duals. Ideally a cruse RPM of around 1600-1800 using a gear ratio and tire height combo to get there. 700R4 has a .70% overdrive so a 3.42 rear diff gear works good with a 26.5 tire.
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Re: MPG and this winters modifications

Post by wyrmrider »

My brothers 81 Eldo FWD- with later lockup trans V8-6-4 gets around 30 LA to Vegas
all works
well maintained
not exactly light
real adventure bringing it to LA on 4 wheel trailer with my Dakota
Thanks to the Late Gil Younger for "back to Low" coming down Cajon pass
2ed gear and brakes alone would not have done it
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Re: MPG and this winters modifications

Post by dave brode »

snipped post.
rfoll wrote:
A set of the 58 cc 1.84 valve 305 heads will really wake it up. Vortec heads work better, but the need for carb heat for cold weather complicates things, and the manifold is more expensive. An Edelbrock 2101 can be had for as little as $25 at a swap meet. Be careful to do the math when spending money to gain fuel economy.
Ditto the no heat issue with '96 up vortec heads.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=38743&hilit=vortec+heat+passage

On a different subject, how well do the 2GCs atomize? Maybe a qj or one of the 5.0 ford holleys with annular boosters in the primary?
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Re: MPG and this winters modifications

Post by wyrmrider »

I'd take a QJ or I use TQ over a 2bbl
if not FI
why not HEI, I switched over and have not looked back
freed up the exhaust I'm using the big rams horns in my 69 PU
I do not have vortec style heads but have been thinking about switching next time I have them off
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