Different chamber styles & timing / octane reqs
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Different chamber styles & timing / octane reqs
Build background:
- BB Mopar 452 c.i. - 4.380" bore x 3.75" stroke w/ 6.76" rods (1.8 rod ratio)
- 3800# street car w/ driver
- 4.10 gears & 275/60R15 DOT drag radials
- 3-speed auto trans & 4500-flash converter
- Cruise RPM @ 65 MPH approx. 3500
- Expected shift RPM ~ 6500
- Expected peak RPM 1/4 mile ~ 7000
- 160* thermostat w/ hi-volume water pump (although subject to higher temps if stuck in summer traffic...)
Operating environment:
- Mid-Atlantic region (Washington, D.C., metro area)
- Wide range in temps during race season (50s to mid-90s) & high humidity levels prevalent in summer
- Local tracks are generally close to sea level up to ~ 1000 ft. elevation
- Driving distance to local tracks ranges from 60+ to 100+ miles (one way)
#1. Same short block, etc., but two versions of the same head casting w/ similar (not identical) levels of porting, but different chamber designs & chamber volumes that impact the quench area & CR. (SEE PICTURE AT BOTTOM OF POST)
IF they were the same volume (and they're not, but that's another question), would the "small" chamber w/ the increased quench area typically result in:
a) ability to run a higher CR than "big" chamber with same octane fuel, or...
b) needing less total timing, but still requiring the same octane, or...
c) some to-be-determined combination of both 'a' & 'b'
#2. The previous combination on the same short block used a different head that had a 78 cc chamber (which was actually close in quench area to the "small" chamber version of the new head), with a comparable-duration cam. Here's a comparison of the calc'd CRs:
a) Original heads w/ 78 cc chambers & .040" quench ==> 10.70
b) New heads w/ "big" 76 cc chambers & .040" quench ==> 10.91
d) New heads w/ "small" 71 cc chambers & .045" quench ==> 11.32
d) New heads w/ "small" 71 cc chambers & .040" quench ==> 11.47
(I won't bother w/ the "Adjusted Compression Ratio for Intake Valve Closing Point" calcs after reading through some of the old & lengthy threads here re: "Dynamic Compression Ratio." )
Combination '2.a' ran fine on the street & track w/ the local 93 E10 pump fuel at 35* total timing. After doing some research on what a couple of the race fuel companies provide as guidelines for using some of their fuels, I put this s.w.a.g. chart together for expected octane requirements:
If 10.7 = 93 min
...10.9 = 94 - 95
...11.5 = 97 - 98
...12.0 = 99 - 100
Anything above 93 E10 is going to require me to blend it w/ higher-octane fuel, at least when the car's being run at the track. I have a local Sunoco race fuel source, in addition to what the local tracks sell on site, so that's feasible... just more expensive to do it.
Sorry to meander so much before getting to the final questions:
==> Do my CR-to-Octane estimates looks reasonable for the described build & application?
==> Would you expect the differences in the chambers used in the 10.9 CR build and the 11.5 build would change the octane requirements? I.e., would the "better" chamber in the higher CR build offset some of the need for increased octane?
- BB Mopar 452 c.i. - 4.380" bore x 3.75" stroke w/ 6.76" rods (1.8 rod ratio)
- 3800# street car w/ driver
- 4.10 gears & 275/60R15 DOT drag radials
- 3-speed auto trans & 4500-flash converter
- Cruise RPM @ 65 MPH approx. 3500
- Expected shift RPM ~ 6500
- Expected peak RPM 1/4 mile ~ 7000
- 160* thermostat w/ hi-volume water pump (although subject to higher temps if stuck in summer traffic...)
Operating environment:
- Mid-Atlantic region (Washington, D.C., metro area)
- Wide range in temps during race season (50s to mid-90s) & high humidity levels prevalent in summer
- Local tracks are generally close to sea level up to ~ 1000 ft. elevation
- Driving distance to local tracks ranges from 60+ to 100+ miles (one way)
#1. Same short block, etc., but two versions of the same head casting w/ similar (not identical) levels of porting, but different chamber designs & chamber volumes that impact the quench area & CR. (SEE PICTURE AT BOTTOM OF POST)
IF they were the same volume (and they're not, but that's another question), would the "small" chamber w/ the increased quench area typically result in:
a) ability to run a higher CR than "big" chamber with same octane fuel, or...
b) needing less total timing, but still requiring the same octane, or...
c) some to-be-determined combination of both 'a' & 'b'
#2. The previous combination on the same short block used a different head that had a 78 cc chamber (which was actually close in quench area to the "small" chamber version of the new head), with a comparable-duration cam. Here's a comparison of the calc'd CRs:
a) Original heads w/ 78 cc chambers & .040" quench ==> 10.70
b) New heads w/ "big" 76 cc chambers & .040" quench ==> 10.91
d) New heads w/ "small" 71 cc chambers & .045" quench ==> 11.32
d) New heads w/ "small" 71 cc chambers & .040" quench ==> 11.47
(I won't bother w/ the "Adjusted Compression Ratio for Intake Valve Closing Point" calcs after reading through some of the old & lengthy threads here re: "Dynamic Compression Ratio." )
Combination '2.a' ran fine on the street & track w/ the local 93 E10 pump fuel at 35* total timing. After doing some research on what a couple of the race fuel companies provide as guidelines for using some of their fuels, I put this s.w.a.g. chart together for expected octane requirements:
If 10.7 = 93 min
...10.9 = 94 - 95
...11.5 = 97 - 98
...12.0 = 99 - 100
Anything above 93 E10 is going to require me to blend it w/ higher-octane fuel, at least when the car's being run at the track. I have a local Sunoco race fuel source, in addition to what the local tracks sell on site, so that's feasible... just more expensive to do it.
Sorry to meander so much before getting to the final questions:
==> Do my CR-to-Octane estimates looks reasonable for the described build & application?
==> Would you expect the differences in the chambers used in the 10.9 CR build and the 11.5 build would change the octane requirements? I.e., would the "better" chamber in the higher CR build offset some of the need for increased octane?
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Last edited by BradH on Fri Aug 19, 2016 9:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Different chamber styles & timing / octane reqs
Close-up views of each chamber...
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Re: Different chamber styles & timing / octane reqs
Lable each chamber "A" and "B" include any measured flows, cc of chamber and measured swirl to each chamber. Add in port volumes, valve sizes or anything else that deferentiates these two heads to give the guys more info to answer your questions. Thanks, Charlie
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Re: Different chamber styles & timing / octane reqs
More than anything between the the heads and compression difference of 10.7 and 11.5 in regards to octane needs will be the temp that the Exh valve runs at!
Get them heat rejection coated and 11.5,comp can be run with the octane that 10.7 can live at, or dam close!
Increasing low lift exh flow off the seat even at the expense of 5 to 8 cfm if high lift at your Cam lift if you have atleast a 75% ratio now can ease the octane needs also plus help the motor rpm faster and run cooler at low rpm water pump rates!
Get them heat rejection coated and 11.5,comp can be run with the octane that 10.7 can live at, or dam close!
Increasing low lift exh flow off the seat even at the expense of 5 to 8 cfm if high lift at your Cam lift if you have atleast a 75% ratio now can ease the octane needs also plus help the motor rpm faster and run cooler at low rpm water pump rates!
You can cut a man's tongue from his mouth, but that does not mean he’s a liar, it just shows that you fear the truth he might speak about you!
Re: Different chamber styles & timing / octane reqs
OK... "A" is the smaller 71cc chamber w/ more quench area.Carnut1 wrote:Lable each chamber "A" and "B" include any measured flows, cc of chamber and measured swirl to each chamber. Add in port volumes, valve sizes or anything else that deferentiates these two heads to give the guys more info to answer your questions. Thanks, Charlie
- 2.20" int & 1.81" exh valves
- Intake runner volume: ~ 295 cc
- No swirl readings available
And "B" is the larger 76cc chamber.
- 2.20" int & 1.81" exh valves (same size for both heads)
- Intake runner volume: ~ 310 cc
- No swirl readings available
"A" tested on Porter Racing Heads' Saenz 600-series flow bench with 4.375” bore fixture...
Data reflects the average of four (4) different cylinders (2 from each head):
INTAKE - AVG (4)
0.100 -- 75.0
0.200 -- 151.3
0.300 -- 220.1
0.400 -- 280.3
0.500 -- 326.1
0.550 -- 338.2
0.600 -- 346.0
0.650 -- 350.5
0.700 -- 355.5
0.750 -- 346.7 ==> Backup believed to be result of CNC'd chambers' shape; same behavior at 15" / 28" / 35" H20 test pressure
EXHAUST - AVG (4) / + 2” PIPE*
0.100 -- 55.0
0.200 -- 116.2
0.300 -- 154.9
0.400 -- 194.0
0.500 -- 223.3 -- 237.6
0.550 -- 233.3 -- 249.2
0.600 -- 241.3 -- 258.5
0.650 -- 247.2 -- 267.5
0.700 -- 251.8 -- 273.5
0.750 -- 255.4 -- 278.3
* Extrapolated from test results on 1 exhaust port w/ 2” pipe
"B" tested on my smaller-capacity Superflow on 4.375" bore fixture...
Results of the average of all 8 intake ports:
INTAKE - AVG (8)
.100 --- 71.1
.200 -- 153.6
.300 -- 221.6
.400 -- 273.1
.500 -- 310.2
.550 -- 322.7
.600 -- 336.3
.650 -- 343.0
.700 -- 346.1
.750 -- < No improvements beyond this point; starts to back up slightly, which is also believed to be result of CNC'd chambers' shape >
Results of one exhaust port:
EXHAUST --- / + 2" PIPE
.100 --- 54 / 54
.200 -- 105 / 108
.300 -- 162 / 167
.400 -- 200 / 211
.500 -- 219 / 239
.550 -- 229 / 251
.600 -- 236 / 263
.650 -- 244 / 271
.700 -- 247 / 275
.750 -- < Not tested beyond this point >
NOTE: When the "B" heads were tested on Porter Racing Heads' flow bench, they flowed more overall (not necessarily at peak, but at certain lower lifts) than on my smaller-capacity SuperFlow bench. However, I'm posting my own test results -- even if they don't look as good -- simply because I have more complete data to provide.
Re: Different chamber styles & timing / octane reqs
Sorry to be a pest but I am not sure if this is chamber "A" or "B". Thanks, Charlie
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Re: Different chamber styles & timing / octane reqs
Are you running a flattop piston under these?
Servedio Cylinder Head Development
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Re: Different chamber styles & timing / octane reqs
Yep.Carnut1 wrote:Are you running a flattop piston under these?
Re: Different chamber styles & timing / octane reqs
"B"Carnut1 wrote:Sorry to be a pest but I am not sure if this is chamber "A" or "B". Thanks, Charlie
Re: Different chamber styles & timing / octane reqs
Ok, I will take a good look at both. Thanks, CharlieBradH wrote:"B"Carnut1 wrote:Sorry to be a pest but I am not sure if this is chamber "A" or "B". Thanks, Charlie
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Re: Different chamber styles & timing / octane reqs
Head "A" definitely seems the better candidate to run on your motor. I believe the better chamber will like slightly less timing and tolerate slightly more compression .
I think your octane requirement estimates are conservative and very "safe". That being said, you will be on the edge over 11:1 with the heat soak of street driving running 93.
I have never run coated anything in an engine, but the suggestion of coated exhaust valves is intriguing, worth researching.
If it were mine (and your conditions and combination are almost dead on to what I have run), I would run the "A" heads, perhaps with coated exhaust valves, and see what it does. The worst that could happen is that it is not happy running straight 93 while heat soaked. If that is the case, pull the heads in the winter and open up the chambers by laying back the spark plug wall to the bore line, it will NOT affect flow.
One more thing- if you have not had your rotating assembly balanced yet, take out some CC's from your pistons by either machining a shallow "D" under the spark plug side OR ditch cutting your valve reliefs and blending all edges.
Please keep us informed of your progress!
I think your octane requirement estimates are conservative and very "safe". That being said, you will be on the edge over 11:1 with the heat soak of street driving running 93.
I have never run coated anything in an engine, but the suggestion of coated exhaust valves is intriguing, worth researching.
If it were mine (and your conditions and combination are almost dead on to what I have run), I would run the "A" heads, perhaps with coated exhaust valves, and see what it does. The worst that could happen is that it is not happy running straight 93 while heat soaked. If that is the case, pull the heads in the winter and open up the chambers by laying back the spark plug wall to the bore line, it will NOT affect flow.
One more thing- if you have not had your rotating assembly balanced yet, take out some CC's from your pistons by either machining a shallow "D" under the spark plug side OR ditch cutting your valve reliefs and blending all edges.
Please keep us informed of your progress!
The price of progress is trouble.
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Re: Different chamber styles & timing / octane reqs
A similar in design, smaller area chamber in distance from the spark plug tip, NOT necessarily volume, will usually require less ignition timing to reach peak power for that chamber when a non-octane limited fuel is used.
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Re: Different chamber styles & timing / octane reqs
Personaly, I don't think you will see much if any diff in timing requirements. I think your splittling hairs and over thinking this deal. In fact, it will probably work the opposite of what you theorize like it usualy does.
Re: Different chamber styles & timing / octane reqs
I have been thinking about this one. It looks to me that the added combustion chamber cc was due to a bit of deshrouding to the gasket line and polishing the chambers on the "A" heads. The added flow on "A" heads are probably due to the chamber work and minor porting. I like the added flow of "A" heads but I also like the smaller chambers and ports of "B" heads. I prefer the deshouding on "A" head next to the quench pad. The quench pad also looks larger on the "A" heads. As far as ignition lead, octane tolerance, it could go either way. On a nice engine like this it is well worth dyno tuning it and maybe a custom cam which we did not even dicuss. I personally like the hand ported "A" heads with the little better flow on this mill. But I also like "B" combustion chamber by the plug. Looks like a swirl enhancer.
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Re: Different chamber styles & timing / octane reqs
Plug sides of "A" and "B" chambers essentially the same;.the quench side is where 98% of the differences are. Edelbrock revised the quench pads on those heads and reduced the chamber volume with the later "A" casting.
"B" has the larger chamber, larger intake runner volume, and smaller quench pad.
"B" has the larger chamber, larger intake runner volume, and smaller quench pad.