Latest in SBC wet sump oiling for road course use?

[Racing68]

Check out these Champ pans, I use them in all our circle track engines with no oiling problems. Might be something else to look at.

http://www.champpans.com/products/p/cp81ko-rr/

http://www.champpans.com/

[Zmechanic]

Check out these Champ pans, I use them in all our circle track engines with no oiling problems. Might be something else to look at.

http://www.champpans.com/products/p/cp81ko-rr/

http://www.champpans.com/

Champ makes some nice pans, and they have great customer service.

In your case, though, I'm wondering if it's not the fault of the baffling and trapdoors in the pan, it's just that under hard braking, all the oil coming from the engine is getting slung forward and staying there BEFORE it gets a chance to get down into the sump behind the trap doors and going like that long enough you eventually almost suck the pan dry at the back.

If that's truly the case, only a dry sump will fix that having return lines in various locations to ensure that no matter where the oil is it will get removed and put back into circulation.

[pamotorman]

I always ran a quart over the full mark in race engines because there is a lot of oil trapped upstairs in the engine at speed. I have ran tracks like poconos and langhorne with a wet sump engine with no problems. I would level the pan on the bench and put water in a quart at a time till I reached the level of where the bottom of the windage tray would be. I would add a quart for the filter plus one more quart for the oil trapped upstairs in the engine. never had oil pressure problems on big track or short tracks

[pamotorman]

I always ran a quart over the full mark in race engines because there is a lot of oil trapped upstairs in the engine at speed. I have ran tracks like poconos and langhorne with a wet sump engine with no problems. I would level the pan on the bench and put water in a quart at a time till I reached the level of where the bottom of the windage tray would be. I would add a quart for the filter plus one more quart for the oil trapped upstairs in the engine. never had oil pressure problems on big track or short tracks

i forgot also I added a quart for the oil cooler and lines

[Newold1]

Pamotorman brought up a good point about how much oil is actually in the sump after hard acceleration and then quick rpm drops going into hard braking and cornering on the track. Depending on what pump volume wise is being used and how much volume of oil is fighting to get back into the pickup sump, the level of oil in the sump on braking or cornering can be much less and lower that one might imagine. This is one good reason to try and make sure you are not trying to deliver to much oil upstairs where it takes good drain back and TIME to get it back into the sump during deceleration. Its not at all to hard to get half the engines oil in all other places in at higher rpms especially on high volume pumps, large oil filters, coolers, lines, etc., especially if the volume of those spaces is not set up to allow enough oil close to the pans sump capacity and considering the oil levels are checked with the engine off and a lot of volume needed to fill these places not in those spaces.

This is one of the major reasons a lot of smart racers use an oil accumulator pressure system to make up for some of this sump oil level drop in hard running, cornering and braking in wet sump track engine oil systems.

As for oil temps, overly hot oil in the engine will generally show a moderate pressure drop at most mid and upper rpm points depending on oil viscosities used. Pressure drops on braking or cornering only are not generally oil temperature driven.
That being said, most know running hard on cold oil is not good either. Accurate oil temperature measurement should always be provided and used in a track car especially in longer endurance events. Oil temp on a ready to run engine should always be kept in the 180-220 degree range to eliminate moisture in the engine and oil system. With todays' synthetics it is a lot more reasonable to see the oil temp range widened to the 180- 250 degree area, but is still better for help in cooling hot engine parts to keep the oil temps down from that 240-250 area. Remember oil is more important for parts cooling in a performance engine that coolant!

I guess what I a resident dummy and other smart guys here on Speedtalk are trying to say is just don't look at your pan and sump as the only possible culprit! The devil is in the details! The solutions are in the investigation of all possibilities!

You can find it and fix it. Good work and good luck.

[ZEOHSIX]

I've used Canton Racing 15-240 pans in early Camaro....with a 1st Gen the front cross member really restricts the space avalible for a decent oil pan. For an oil pump I would only use a Melling "shark tooth" type pump for a high RPM build.....Ill bet your oil pressure problems under braking are due to a trap door failing to seal properly. Jeff Johnson at Billet Fabrications patented the ball bearing type of check valve and they seal without fail! I would definatley run an Accusump if I were doing open track sessions with a wet sump pan and sticky tires.

Here's a link to Billet Fab: http://billetfab.com/assets/files/Bille ... atalog.pdf

[Kevin Johnson]

Picture of my own here below Kevin, looks a bit different in the forward section.

Tried two different fill levels, with similar results. Full, and quart over full. Motor had a stock Z28 windage tray.

Pressure was good the rest of the time, just not under braking.

Planning to do a remote oil filter and a cooler.

IMG_0255.jpeg

If you extend the forward baffle plate towards the rear (make sure it is above the boxing for the trap doors below) that should increase the trapped volume of oil. Again, it looks like a different pan core was used in the construction and the one that the OP referenced in the catalog has a much more pronounced and gradual slope towards the front of the pan with a commensurately sized baffle, i.e. a greater volume of oil is trapped. If the oil is allowed to migrate over that plate it will be churned by the rotating assembly under heavy braking and the subsequently aerated oil in the sump will cause a pressure drop.

When I make windage tray sets with baffles, even if pans casually look identical, there are usually contours that have changed. For example, the Dormann replacement for the 1995 Neon 2.0 is NOT identical to the 1995 OEM pan. It LOOKS similar and for normal usage I am sure it functions similarly.

Fabricate a bolt-in plate so the modification is reversible, if need be.

extend_baffle_plate.jpg

[j-rho]

Kevin, here's a pic of the new pan:

(if it's not appearing try this link: https://www.amazon.com/photos/share/JUs ... mb58CxKW9h)

It doesn't appear to have the extended baffle your pan did. I'm going to send this one back because of the bent corner...and will contact Champ about that pan, hadn't seen it before, looks decent?

Will be using an Accusump in conjunction.

[Newold1]

If you are not up against a real time limit before your racing series begins I would try to loose the thought "DECENT" and spend some more time investigating especially with other racers who with similar engines and combinations are having good results. Don't go on a parts replacing trip until you really know what may have been other issues and you are sure just a simple pan change will solve the real problems. JMO

[pamotorman]

that is the similar to the type of windage tray with louvers I made for the 4 cylinder 2 liter cavalier race engines . the louvers help scraped the oil from rotating assy. I had them Teflon coated so the oil would not adhere. one edge of the tray was turned up 90 degrees to scrape the oil from the counter weights and throw it back into the pan

[j-rho]

If you are not up against a real time limit before your racing series begins I would try to loose the thought "DECENT" and spend some more time investigating especially with other racers who with similar engines and combinations are having good results. Don't go on a parts replacing trip until you really know what may have been other issues and you are sure just a simple pan change will solve the real problems. JMO

This is good, sage advice. In this racing class, most are running dry sump. Been trying to avoid going that route due to the complexity and amount of custom parts, but perhaps it's time to re-address...

Anybody seen a good how-to on dry-sumping a typical SBC? The part that worries me the most (perhaps unnecessarily) is making the drive system work using bolt-on stuff. Using electric water pump, so need a system that accommodates that along with alternator and power steering. I can't weld, don't have a lathe, etc., so need a solution that fits the setting. Have built turbo systems before so mounting the tank and making/running the lines, not too worried about.

[cgarb]

I am in agreement with Kevin fabricate a plate to go in just like he said, I would make it as far back in the pan as you can and not hit the pump. That will create a pocket of oil that cant go up over the sump when braking. Maybe drill a couple small hole to let the air escape and not get trapped under the plate and create a bubble. It will give a false level of oil until you drive it a little while and the air escapes. That's how I make my pans for bracket racing. If anyone has ever dropped somebody in the traps so hard the oil pressure light comes on you know what I'm talking about...That same plate kept my pump from sucking air also. I Tig welded mine in. The trap door baffle just wasn't enough during hard braking.

[Erland Cox]

In the 60:s or 70:s Aviaid made swinging pick ups for wet sump pans.
A friend of mine has made copies and they work well according to him.
Even in Lola type cars with kow weight and big slicks.
I will see if I can get a picture of it.
Here is what I found now:

https://books.google.se/books?id=g469j- ... vy&f=false

Erland