Raising runner, not short turn?

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Re: Raising runner, not short turn?

Post by ijames » Mon Jul 03, 2017 2:20 pm

Whatever you were paying for helium, it's going up #-o . Apparently Qatar supplies at least 20% of the world's helium these days and with the economic sanctions the Saudis and others have imposed that supply has dried up, sigh.

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Re: Raising runner, not short turn?

Post by nickpohlaandp » Mon Jul 03, 2017 2:39 pm

Rick Finsta wrote:I need to raise those spring seats - what is the best way to get those guides out of there? Then I can turn a stainless or copper bar in the lathe that will be a light slip fit and I can weld up around them.
I'm not saying this is the right way, there's probably a lot, but I've used an oven and a press to remove valve guides on aluminum heads. Heat the heads up to 275-300 and they come out fairly easily. You have to make sure you've got the guide perfectly in line with your press though, so it's a bit sketchy.

I also tried a drift and a hammer on a set of aluminum heads that I wasn't planning on doing with, just to see how it would work (hey, I get bored sometimes). With no heat and a drift I was able to hammer the guides out without damaging the heads. I was surprised. That was a Ford DOHC "C" head with 16 valve guides, and they all came out. Mind you, I didn't try to get the guides out with the first blow, I just kind of tapped them with my hammer (I think it's a 16 oz ball peen that I used). I just started tapping on them until I found the force that was needed to get it to start moving and continued with that force. I imagine that's an ok method for removing them, but I certainly wouldn't try to install them that way.
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Re: Raising runner, not short turn?

Post by Rick Finsta » Mon Jul 03, 2017 4:58 pm

The "worst case" is I just take them to my local shop to have them removed. I might even be able to convince him to let me rent time on his 350DX which would get this job done without the Helium! :mrgreen:

Otherwise his brother owns a local welding supply company and I might be able to get a sweatheart deal on some mix?

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Re: Raising runner, not short turn?

Post by Rick Finsta » Wed Jul 05, 2017 8:01 pm

Chad, I'm thinking on how to raise the spring seats and would appreciate your feedback. I think I want to make 0.375" thick aluminum spacers on the lathe, with a full depth chamfer, and I'll make a tool that will pilot on the guide and make a matching chamfer on the head. Then I'll weld around the periphery with the guides in place.

Would 0.375" of aluminum spring seat plus whatever is below it in your port support 220/550lb springs?

I'm giving you room to raise those ports, buddy!

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Re: Raising runner, not short turn?

Post by Carnut1 » Wed Jul 05, 2017 8:23 pm

Before you raise those spring seats do you have extra long valves and spring combo worked out? That also screws with your geometry. I would hate to see more work done that can't be made to run. Thanks, Charlie
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Re: Raising runner, not short turn?

Post by Rick Finsta » Wed Jul 05, 2017 10:35 pm

Valves are very likely going to be custom and Jesel or T&D are going to have to work out the geometry! Absolute worst case I can weld up the rocker pads and cut new locations.

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Re: Raising runner, not short turn?

Post by nickpohlaandp » Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:17 am

What heads are those that you are COMPLETELY redesigning? This is pretty cool IMO,
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Re: Raising runner, not short turn?

Post by Rick Finsta » Thu Jul 06, 2017 12:16 pm

Edelbrock Oldsmobile Performer RPM. They are unfortunately the only reliable casting out there for an Oldsmobile. The Batten stuff is ancient and most of it is soft, porous junk. Wenzler/Rocket Racing are sprinklers, or not, but you don't know until you buy them and pressure test them. The Pro Comps? Well so far they seem to be a decent quality copy of this Edelbrock head, but who knows what alloy you're getting day to day with something like that. Certainly nothing I'd use in a high boost application.

Bill Travato of BTR Performance did something similar with Edelbrocks by doing what my initial plan was here (raising the floor to the SSR apex). He also did some with raw castings from Edelbrock where he welded everything up, moved the pushrods, and moved the rocker arms. Edelbrock will only sell you raw castings if you order a complete run I guess, or if you catch them at the right time when they are already running some. Word is they might be redesigning the casting slightly now (or soon) but it won't be anything earth-shattering from what I hear.

Otherwise, I could get a set of custom billets with guides and seats for $7500. That would have been a better idea if you look at the amount of time and money I'll spend on these, but I really like learning and making things! I don't know what I don't know about head / port design, which is why I wanted to work with someone like Chad. I can put metal where he needs metal, and he can worry about shape!

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Re: Raising runner, not short turn?

Post by nickpohlaandp » Thu Jul 06, 2017 1:45 pm

I still think that's awesome work.

I'm with you on the ProComp heads. I've read a little about them and I get mixed reviews. The more "beware" type reviews seem to come from more reputable builders, and the one thing I hear most often is that they have a rather thin deck surface right off the bat. It's very tempting to get a set and try to build them up for my BBC because the price is so reasonable, but therein lies the problem. If the price is so low... why is it so low? Maybe because they're made in communist Kerplunkistan by 3 year old indentured servants? Part of me wants to say "Get 'em. Weld them up, port them to flow well, put some good valves, seats, springs, and retainers on them and let 'em rock". Then there's the other part that says "If you get these and dump a bunch of money into good parts to fill 'em with, you'll probably end up with a cracked head the first time you hit it with a 250 shot."

I really wish there were some guys out there who have used ProComp heads in heavy hitting builds to give some feedback on. I suppose the fact that there isn't any (and if there is, I haven't heard from them) might be proof that they just wont take the beating. I feel like I'm better off keeping the extra weight of my iron -781's and making the most of them.
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Re: Raising runner, not short turn?

Post by Rick Finsta » Thu Jul 06, 2017 2:11 pm

It took me too long to learn the lessons of false economy. "Saving money," usually isn't!

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Re: Raising runner, not short turn?

Post by nickpohlaandp » Thu Jul 06, 2017 2:17 pm

Rick Finsta wrote:It took me too long to learn the lessons of false economy. "Saving money," usually isn't!
Yeah, I'm still under 40, so I feel like I've learned enough to know better. Sometimes it's like walking with your wife and some smokin' hot ass chick walks by and you just can't help but look. You know it's not a good idea, you know it's not going to end up well for you, but you are just drawn like a moth to a flame. Well, I've learned I can deal with the evil look from my wife, and perhaps the cold shoulder for a little bit, but whenever I see a set of 320cc BBC aluminum heads complete for $1200 I just remind myself that they're a lot like fireworks... they look cool in the package, you get a lot for cheap, but they're made to explode, and once they do you are left with nothing but a mess and you're out a whole bunch of money.
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Re: Raising runner, not short turn?

Post by Rick Finsta » Thu Jul 20, 2017 10:59 pm

Finally got back to these after building a new fuel tank. Just a little more work on the top and then I get to the real PITA which is the runners. Chad, we'll need to figure out how to work the logistics on this. I'm not sure if you want to send the first head back to me so I can get everything welded to where you'll need it, or if we'll need to go back and forth with shipping a few times.

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I've got some carbon (graphite) rod on the way to plug up the pushrod and head bolt holes while I weld up the port you've got roughed in, and for the valve guide holes as well.

This is fun!

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Re: Raising runner, not short turn?

Post by Rick Finsta » Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:38 pm

Got the last bit done on the top of the head and started hacking at the runners for more torch clearance. I just raised it 0.250" and looks like Chad took nearly 0.500" out up there; I don't want to get anywhere near where he needs to be shaping things so I don't have to repair little divots here and there later on, but another few tenths would really help me hit that short turn with the torch. I also opened up the pushrod pinches a little to be able to get around them more easily with the torch.

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Here's the stock height for reference:

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Chad, you've got prettier dykem than I do. Jealous.

I've got the graphite rod to plug up areas I don't want weld to go (like the valve guide holes, bolt holes, pushrod holes) but I tried to not break through to the pushrods near the floor. Welding that thick stuff near anything paper thin would not be fun.

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Re: Raising runner, not short turn?

Post by Rick Finsta » Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:40 pm

Here's a picture of Chad's roughed-in port since photobucket went crazy:

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Re: Raising runner, not short turn?

Post by JoePorting » Sat Jul 22, 2017 3:28 am

All that welding really does a number on the heads. When the weld cools, it sucks in all the material around it meaning every machined surface is going to be warped which means you'll have to resurface the deck, intake face, valve cover surface, and rocker surface. The welding also takes out the casting hardening which means your rocker bolt threads will only hold about 45 pounds of torque before they strip. You'll also need to do another valve job, and if you weld close to the valve seats you risk loosening the seats causing them to fall out. So your going to have to install bushings in the rocker bolt holes and double check everything else if you want it to run right.
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