Windsor Super Victor – plenums, port forms & finishes Vs flow

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Erland Cox
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Re: Windsor Super Victor – plenums, port forms & finishes Vs flow

Post by Erland Cox » Thu Aug 03, 2017 3:43 pm

David Vizard wrote:Since the subject has been raised by Erland and some others let’s take a look at finishes and boundary layers.

The first question here is we know a dimples finish works on a golf ball but why it does is another thing. But I am maybe jumping the gun here so lets start with a little on boundary layers.

The # 1 factor here is to appreciate that there is far more to boundary layer flow than might at first seem. There are two classes of boundary layer – laminar and turbulent. What starts off as laminar turns to turbulent after a certain distance along the surface concerned. A turbulent flow starts as a laminar flow very close to the surface but then becomes turbulent. In the case of golf ball dimples lack of them produces one large rolling wave just past the point of the balls max diameter. This makes it appear as if the ball is larger than it really is. With the dimples a trailing dimple generated Vortex breaks up the proceeding one. This produces a smaller overal vortex and cuts the apparent diameter of the ball as well as having the effect of tidying up the trailing flow.

Those of you who read some of my posts on the surface finish thread may have noted that I said I only polished the short side turn just before the seat. Well here is some news! After looking at Charlie’s finish on my E7 heads I decided to polish one as I was having doubts about this move. As near as I could tell it was very slightly worse with the fully polished finish!


Image

The boundary layer is the layer between the main body of flow and the port wall and it is moving much slower than the main body of flow.
The reason for a rough finish is to activate the boundary layer to keep it thinner.
A thickening of the boundary layer leads to flow separation from the surface.
The slower the velocity the thicker the boundary layer gets and vise versa.
The highest velocity in the port is not at the short radius just before the seat but before the crown of the SSR.
Where the velocity is high there is almost no boundary layer so there is no reason to activate it, that only creates more surface drag.
Just making the floor before the crown smother on a 225CFM head is worth 10 CFM in flow.
Applying course finish started out being used only just above the seats and on some heads that was also worth at least 10 CFM in flow.
It helped the flow to turn and follow the seats just as the golf ball dimples do.

The Golf ball.
The dimples activate the boundary layer and delay flow separation to a later point which makes the wake beind the ball smaller and cuts drag.


Erland

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Re: Windsor Super Victor – plenums, port forms & finishes Vs flow

Post by Erland Cox » Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:43 am

This was about a Super Victor manifild but I have a question about a Victor Junior.
That manifold has a edge in each corneer making the flow turn inwards first and then outwards into the port.
I guess it didn´t happen by accident and at the same time when looking down through the carburetor it looks like a place to grind.
How do you port this manifold?

Erland

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Re: Windsor Super Victor – plenums, port forms & finishes Vs flow

Post by Carnut1 » Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:00 pm

I used to radius those edges out and change the roof entrance radius. Had good plug color cylinder to cylinder but was fuel injected as well as a spacer and custom plenum insert. Thanks, Charlie
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Re: Windsor Super Victor – plenums, port forms & finishes Vs flow

Post by Walter R. Malik » Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:20 pm

Erland Cox wrote:This was about a Super Victor manifild but I have a question about a Victor Junior.
That manifold has a edge in each corneer making the flow turn inwards first and then outwards into the port.
I guess it didn´t happen by accident and at the same time when looking down through the carburetor it looks like a place to grind.
How do you port this manifold?

Erland
It really depends upon the carburetor being used.
High velocity air through the bores ... leave them there so, fuel will turn the corner into the port.
Lower velocity air through the bores ... remove them, as now they just get in the way.
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Re: Windsor Super Victor – plenums, port forms & finishes Vs flow

Post by Erland Cox » Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:34 pm

Bill Jenkins put them in all his Nascar manifolds in the 70:s and I guess that it is from there that Edelbrock got it.
But I think that it is only the JR that has got them and not the bigger Victor manifolds.
They make the port slightly longer and probably help the flow to turn.
In a perfect world I would have 10 manifolds to test on but now I only have one.
So I will doing som listening and thinking before porting.

Erland

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Re: Windsor Super Victor – plenums, port forms & finishes Vs flow

Post by Joe-71 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:55 pm

As a porter with 45 years experience, and having my own SF-600 for 25 years, I have a question that begs to be thrown out to all the claims here about roughing up the ports and the horsepower claims involved. Question: Has anyone actually gone back in and cartridge rolled the intake ports with a 36 grit roll after they dyno tested the rough ports? Has anyone gone back in and cartridge rolled the intake manifold passages after a dyno test of the rough ports? Has anyone actually dyno tested the same heads and intake manifold with a 36 grit cartridge roll afterwards? When I bought my flow bench years ago, I asked what books were available at the time, and David Vizzard's book was the only one that actually gave flow shapes, port wall textures, and percentages for porters to work with. I have had great success over the years with winning combinations all over the USA for folks using the rough cartridge roll intake ports, and polished exhaust ports. I also media blast intake manifolds and pressure wash them after porting which has proven very effective. I hesitate to just abandon what has been a very successful way to build horsepower and torque all these years. Joe-71

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Re: Windsor Super Victor – plenums, port forms & finishes Vs flow

Post by BigBro74 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 11:18 pm

I believe that Larry Maeux has done exactly whT you are asking about and written about it on this forum in the past.

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Re: Windsor Super Victor – plenums, port forms & finishes Vs flow

Post by cspeier » Wed Aug 09, 2017 11:24 pm

Joe-71 wrote:As a porter with 45 years experience, and having my own SF-600 for 25 years, I have a question that begs to be thrown out to all the claims here about roughing up the ports and the horsepower claims involved. Question: Has anyone actually gone back in and cartridge rolled the intake ports with a 36 grit roll after they dyno tested the rough ports? Has anyone gone back in and cartridge rolled the intake manifold passages after a dyno test of the rough ports? Has anyone actually dyno tested the same heads and intake manifold with a 36 grit cartridge roll afterwards? When I bought my flow bench years ago, I asked what books were available at the time, and David Vizzard's book was the only one that actually gave flow shapes, port wall textures, and percentages for porters to work with. I have had great success over the years with winning combinations all over the USA for folks using the rough cartridge roll intake ports, and polished exhaust ports. I also media blast intake manifolds and pressure wash them after porting which has proven very effective. I hesitate to just abandon what has been a very successful way to build horsepower and torque all these years. Joe-71
Yes from me on all your questions.

It's as simple as port design and porting style. Plain and simple.

My style isn't yours and what I do may not apply to your yours.

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Re: Windsor Super Victor – plenums, port forms & finishes Vs flow

Post by David Vizard » Thu Aug 10, 2017 7:49 pm

Frankshaft wrote:- As far as port energy, you can call it whatever you want. That's fine. Its not a necessary "measurement" or one of the many port dynamics that exist. Someone that understand port "dynamics" knows that. Porting cylinder heads isn't about grinding, sticking it on the flow bench, flowing it, grinding more, sticking it back on there to see if it flows more. Its simply about sizing the port for the given application, creating complimenting areas within the runner, and then tuning the velocity profile to compliment the application. Its different for every application. maximizing what you refer to as port energy, will in most cases create a port that is to fast. One of the most misunderstood "dynamics" in cylinder head porting is velocity. Its not the most velocity you can create, but the correct velocity for the given application, that's the trick, knowing what you need. So, respectfully, I am not a follower of port energy. Sorry. I would blow most peoples minds on here, what I have made for power with every application under the sun. The kicker, at least half or more of the time, the heads NEVER went on a flow bench. One time, I hand ported a set of Indy 600-13x cnc castings from scratch, for a local dyno shop friend of mine, to replace a set of cracked and burnt up castings that BES did originally. My heads made 30 more hp on the same short block, vs BES's cnc'd set. The heads never went on a flow bench. I have a Saenz S-600 for the record, its my 3rd flow bench I have owned over the years. This usually bugs people, when I say this, but, a flow bench is an intermediate learning tool. I know its not, but I make that joke all the time. That quote was actually from Billy Glidden. I have picked up no less than 20 sets of AFR whatever. Fill in the blanks. BBC 357's, sbc 195,s,210's, 220's, 227's, 235's, etc etc, HUGE. Not even kidding. Usually to the tune of 40-60 hp. Why, because they have killer port energy. Reducing it makes WAY more power. Its not even about flow. Recently I re ported a set of RHS 200 heads I did for a 331 sbc road race engine. They were originally ported and had I would bet good port energy. Small port, fairly high flowing port. He built a new 377 short block, redynoed, and it quit a bit early. Re ported the heads for the new application, mainly to adjust the velocity profile, it gained minimal cfm, but made 35 more hp. The port energy as described was lower, but it made 35 more hp. I could go on and on with this stuff. Might not be able to articulate as well, with fancy graphs and the like, but I promise you, I know how to make real power, as well as anyone, and better than most.

DV response:-

I have thought long and hard as to how I should respond to your post here hence the delay.

I have followed pretty much all of your posts during the time I have been with ST. It is evident that you have well past a normal handle on things when it comes to making power so I am very reluctant to dismiss your comments lightly. As one of your recent post shows your porting dexterity is truly world class. My work looks just fine until placed next to what you are doing.

But that aside, I have come to the conclusion that the difference in our viewpoints is a failing on my part. Using port energy and specific energy is a is a little known but proven concept but the fact that someone of your caliber has failed to grasp it has most certainly demonstrated my failure to describe it and how it all relates to what we doing here.

You made a point about all the races your engines have won. This is good but I would like to remind you that my engines have won many many races including international ones. My best year delivered 5 national championships of which 2 were by winning every race in the series concerned. It’s not that I want to brag about this but rather point out that I must have had at least a half an idea what I was doing. My work with cylinder heads has even found it’s way into F1. How many ST posters can claim that let alone a guy like me who is so often rated among the semi clueless motor media.

I am certain I have something within the realms of cylinder head technology that I can teach you but more important for me is that I feel your extensive experience here leaves the door open for me to learn something of value from you.

In no particular order here, if you are agreeable, is what I would like to do:-

#1 Send you a complimentary copy of the flow bench program in question here.

#2 Have you evaluate the program and we converse privately back and forth on what and where you feel it, or I, is not delivering.

#3 Send me some heads that have demonstrated, in your opinion, really good dyno results and one that, again in your opinion, did not measure up to what you were looking for. With these I can assess the relevance of flow, velocity, discharge coefficient , port energy and energy density. These results will be between you and I unless you want to release them.

#4 Lastly have you got a SBF Windsor style head that performed very well on the dyno that can be made photo ready so I can show it in the SBF book I am currently working on?

PM me with your contact details if you are of a mind to push forward on this proposal.
DV
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Re: Windsor Super Victor – plenums, port forms & finishes Vs flow

Post by Erland Cox » Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:42 pm

David, what is your target on port energy for best hp?
There must be a point where getting more port energy is starting to cost power?
This is the formula for calculating velocity from pressure:

Image

From reading your books you claim that if the piston driven pressure in the cylinder is more than 25" of water there is something wrong with the head.
But in other discussions it is said that an engine starts loosing power at 620 fps mean intake velocity.
620 FPS if I have not miscalculated takes 83" of water to achieve.
25" of water will only give 340 fps.
I would like some clarification here if possible.

Erland

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Re: Windsor Super Victor – plenums, port forms & finishes Vs flow

Post by David Vizard » Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:00 pm

Erland,

Sorry for the delay here - only just got to your post. Give me a week or so here and I will put something together for a reply.

Time is short at the present as I am getting a seminar put together for the 8th Sept.

Thanks
DV
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Re: Windsor Super Victor – plenums, port forms & finishes Vs flow

Post by Erland Cox » Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:25 pm

OK! Take your time.

Erland

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Re: Windsor Super Victor – plenums, port forms & finishes Vs flow

Post by BradH » Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:00 pm

David Vizard wrote:PM me with your contact details if you are of a mind to push forward on this proposal.
DV
I'm curious as to whether the offer that DV presented to Frankshaft was even discussed between them. It struck me as a very interesting opportunity for both. 8)

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Re: Windsor Super Victor – plenums, port forms & finishes Vs flow

Post by Frankshaft » Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:45 pm

BradH wrote:
David Vizard wrote:PM me with your contact details if you are of a mind to push forward on this proposal.
DV
I'm curious as to whether the offer that DV presented to Frankshaft was even discussed between them. It struck me as a very interesting opportunity for both. 8)
Actually, I just seen this, and read the offer above. I am actually kind of surprised. I have sent 2 sets of 7721 edelbrocks, some gv2's, and a set of d3's for evaluation . Just kidding, but seriously, I am not as closed minded as I may come across as, I can be blunt, but at least I am not afraid to speak what's on my mind. To be fair, I probably should have gotten more info, and learned more about this port energy stuff, before I gave such a strong opinion. I am open to talking with David. I sorta did that with the 128 rule too, before I was explained what it was all about. I noticed he sent me a pm, so, I will reply.

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Re: Windsor Super Victor – plenums, port forms & finishes Vs flow

Post by RevTheory » Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:48 pm

Can't ask for more than that. Cool

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