Race Engine Challenge

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

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randy331
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Re: Race Engine Challenge

Post by randy331 » Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:03 pm

GARY C wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2017 4:12 pm
Rick, could you share with us the total cost of the "sets" of heads, all the cams, lifters, "intakes," "carbs" 100's of hours of dyno time of "both" engines plus all the misc and travel cost to get to a winning engine if a guy like me without the free access of above mentioned stuff was going to try to enter next years competition?
The biggest factor is to surround yourself with the right brain trust.

I feel very fortunate to have the group around me that I do.

The cost can be spread around the team.

Randy

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Re: Race Engine Challenge

Post by GARY C » Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:57 pm

randy331 wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:03 pm
GARY C wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2017 4:12 pm
Rick, could you share with us the total cost of the "sets" of heads, all the cams, lifters, "intakes," "carbs" 100's of hours of dyno time of "both" engines plus all the misc and travel cost to get to a winning engine if a guy like me without the free access of above mentioned stuff was going to try to enter next years competition?
The biggest factor is to surround yourself with the right brain trust.

I feel very fortunate to have the group around me that I do.

The cost can be spread around the team.

Randy
True but in the context of why this question was asked $20,000.00 is still $20,000.00 regardless of how you divide it and time is money even if you get machine work and dyno time for free (some don't) and your left with what you can re coupe for the used engine or engines in some cases if you don't win the big prize money and this would only get more costly if your goal was to beat everyone in the competition.

I agree that money alone will not win this but you and I both know how much is spent to get to the winners circle.

I am not discounting what you guys have accomplished I just don't believe in mis leading people to think something other than the truth!

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Re: Race Engine Challenge

Post by randy331 » Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:32 pm

GARY C wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:57 pm
True but in the context of why this question was asked $20,000.00 is still $20,000.00 regardless of how you divide it and time is money even if you get machine work and dyno time for free (some don't) and your left with what you can re coupe for the used engine or engines in some cases if you don't win the big prize money and this would only get more costly if your goal was to beat everyone in the competition.

I agree that money alone will not win this but you and I both know how much is spent to get to the winners circle.

I am not discounting what you guys have accomplished I just don't believe in mis leading people to think something other than the truth!
If you don't believe in misleading people,.. then I'd stop throwing around $20,000. And certainly $50,000-$75,000 price tag.
In reality Rick, me, Chad, and Joe threw our time in for free. No doubt we all could have made money instead. But cost on parts, Joe may come out ahead on that. He runs a race engine shop. Race parts lay around in his shop everywhere there. There's always a use for lightly used parts.

Travel, motel, dining etc, it all cost money. I went to Alaska a few years back. It was fun and I enjoyed it for sure,... but Alaska is very lacking in engine talk, and they didn't give me a trophy. I drove out to the drag strip, but it was closed. :(
Went up to a circle track, closed too.
Lots of salmon fishing talk. Talk of bears. Whale talk. No TQ/cubes talk anywhere.
But Alaska wasn't free either. But I did get a nice ride in a Cessna Caravan up the coast. That was cool,..but :( I don't think it gained us any EMC points.

Depends on what you want to spend your time and money on.

Randy

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Re: Race Engine Challenge

Post by GARY C » Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:46 pm

randy331 wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:32 pm
GARY C wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:57 pm
True but in the context of why this question was asked $20,000.00 is still $20,000.00 regardless of how you divide it and time is money even if you get machine work and dyno time for free (some don't) and your left with what you can re coupe for the used engine or engines in some cases if you don't win the big prize money and this would only get more costly if your goal was to beat everyone in the competition.

I agree that money alone will not win this but you and I both know how much is spent to get to the winners circle.

I am not discounting what you guys have accomplished I just don't believe in mis leading people to think something other than the truth!
If you don't believe in misleading people,.. then I'd stop throwing around $20,000. And certainly $50,000-$75,000 price tag.
In reality Rick, me, Chad, and Joe threw our time in for free. No doubt we all could have made money instead. But cost on parts, Joe may come out ahead on that. He runs a race engine shop. Race parts lay around in his shop everywhere there. There's always a use for lightly used parts.

Travel, motel, dining etc, it all cost money. I went to Alaska a few years back. It was fun and I enjoyed it for sure,... but Alaska is very lacking in engine talk, and they didn't give me a trophy. I drove out to the drag strip, but it was closed. :(
Went up to a circle track, closed too.
Lots of salmon fishing talk. Talk of bears. Whale talk. No TQ/cubes talk anywhere.
But Alaska wasn't free either. But I did get a nice ride in a Cessna Caravan up the coast. That was cool,..but :( I don't think it gained us any EMC points.

Depends on what you want to spend your time and money on.

Randy
Ok, if you really want to keep going on this!

My question... CONTEXT!
"Rick, could you share with us the total cost of the "sets" of heads, all the cams, lifters, "intakes," "carbs" 100's of hours of dyno time of "both" engines plus all the misc and travel cost to get to a winning engine if a guy like me without the free access of above mentioned stuff was going to try to enter next years competition?"

I challenge you to post all cost from day one it would have cost "me" to do what you did! Or even just the total dollars it cost you guys for everything, not just the one engine you ended up with, I may be dumb but I can work a calculator and I know what it cost to build "1" engine!

As you said flying cost money...Just because you got a free ride doesn't mean someone didn't have to pay for it!

EDIT! I never said $50,000.00 to $75,000.00 but if you think he is wrong I urge you to talk to Jon, Tony or the owner of SAM and see what they say about what guys have spent in the past to win the top prize! I can promise you that # was not pulled out of thin air!

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Re: Race Engine Challenge

Post by Rick360 » Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:41 am

Who knows what it would cost YOU because I don't know your location, abilities or resources. Things I may do myself without thinking you may have to drive 100 miles to pay to have done. Do you have a collection of race parts from years past? Many of the parts were already in hand before entering EMC from other projects or planned projects. Do you want to count the new Jesel belt drive I bought for testing? It'll be used for testing future engines too. Some Companies give discounts for EMC competitors hoping their parts end up in the winning engine for the mag articles.

When I buy a set of bare heads or intake and port them and run them on my own car and later sell them, I've never sold them for less than I paid for the parts new. Racing is an expensive hobby if you have to pay someone to do everything.

One thing is for sure, the amount we spent was an amount we were all OK spending with nothing but the pieces when we were done. The parts in the engine at EMC and normal machine work (bore/hone, vj, deck etc) was $10k or less. But, how can you put a price on porting heads for a winning EMC engine? I wouldn't know where to buy them cause Randy doesn't do that for a living.

Rick

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Re: Race Engine Challenge

Post by Rick360 » Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:58 am

Amilcar wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 1:49 pm
Rick/Randy,

Do you guys have used some kind of engine simulation (EA.PRO/Dynomation)to help on see some "trends" on what/how to test next?
I have used Engine Pro by Patrick Hale (sold here on ST in the bundle) for 20 years or so and have learned some important relationships using it. It works real good for more race type engines but lower rpm broad TQ curve EMC type engines it gets some stuff wrong. I've had Dynomation5 for a few years and haven't found it very useful. Haven't tried other sim programs. Use Pipemax for some calculations but it predicts wrong header size for this engine.

Shape in a head/intake is so important for HP and in determining the size it needs to be and there is no good way to quantify that in a computer program. Using a spreadsheet with our own velocity/sizing formulas is better because it is based on how our ports are shaped.

Rick

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Re: Race Engine Challenge

Post by GARY C » Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:06 am

Rick360 wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:41 am
Who knows what it would cost YOU because I don't know your location, abilities or resources. Things I may do myself without thinking you may have to drive 100 miles to pay to have done. Do you have a collection of race parts from years past? Many of the parts were already in hand before entering EMC from other projects or planned projects. Do you want to count the new Jesel belt drive I bought for testing? It'll be used for testing future engines too. Some Companies give discounts for EMC competitors hoping their parts end up in the winning engine for the mag articles.

When I buy a set of bare heads or intake and port them and run them on my own car and later sell them, I've never sold them for less than I paid for the parts new. Racing is an expensive hobby if you have to pay someone to do everything.

One thing is for sure, the amount we spent was an amount we were all OK spending with nothing but the pieces when we were done. The parts in the engine at EMC and normal machine work (bore/hone, vj, deck etc) was $10k or less. But, how can you put a price on porting heads for a winning EMC engine? I wouldn't know where to buy them cause Randy doesn't do that for a living.

Rick
You and I both know why you posted what you posted and why you want to play off the actually cost incurred from start to finish, at least now I know I can believe "half" of what you post!

Keep up the good work!

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Re: Race Engine Challenge

Post by midnightbluS10 » Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:15 am

Rick360 wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:58 am
Amilcar wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 1:49 pm
Rick/Randy,

Do you guys have used some kind of engine simulation (EA.PRO/Dynomation)to help on see some "trends" on what/how to test next?
I have used Engine Pro by Patrick Hale (sold here on ST in the bundle) for 20 years or so and have learned some important relationships using it. It works real good for more race type engines but lower rpm broad TQ curve EMC type engines it gets some stuff wrong. I've had Dynomation5 for a few years and haven't found it very useful. Haven't tried other sim programs. Use Pipemax for some calculations but it predicts wrong header size for this engine.

Shape in a head/intake is so important for HP and in determining the size it needs to be and there is no good way to quantify that in a computer program. Using a spreadsheet with our own velocity/sizing formulas is better because it is based on how our ports are shaped.

Rick

How wrong was the header size it predicted? What did pipemax recommend vs what you used that you determined was correct?

Thanks.

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Re: Race Engine Challenge

Post by randy331 » Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:24 am

GARY C wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:46 pm
if a guy like me without the free access of above mentioned stuff was going to try to enter next years competition?"

...Just because you got a free ride doesn't mean someone didn't have to pay for it!
Joe is already talking about doing it again next year. I probably shouldn't take the time 2 years in a row. Call him up and tell him you'll do the heads/intake/spec cams to test. You'll buy some headers and oil pans you think will score good. And, go to his shop to do the dynoing. Then you'll have that free ride you talk about.

I'll go truck pulling next year.

Randy

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Re: Race Engine Challenge

Post by GARY C » Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:49 am

randy331 wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:24 am
GARY C wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:46 pm
if a guy like me without the free access of above mentioned stuff was going to try to enter next years competition?"

...Just because you got a free ride doesn't mean someone didn't have to pay for it!
Joe is already talking about doing it again next year. I probably shouldn't take the time 2 years in a row. Call him up and tell him you'll do the heads/intake/spec cams to test. You'll buy some headers and oil pans you think will score good. And, go to his shop to do the dynoing. Then you'll have that free ride you talk about.

I'll go truck pulling next year.

Randy
You know what I mean, there is still cost involved, your plane, his plane or the airline. to r&d an engine takes a multiple of parts but you already now that, so regardless of what is done with those parts the up front investment is still necessary even if you already have some of those parts, they still had to be purchased, the parts list you just posted could easily exceed 6 grand depending on how many your going to test against each other.
One problem with your plan is I doubt I could match your performance and the other is I don't fly, your plane his plane or the airline, so it looks like you will be doing it again next year.

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Re: Race Engine Challenge

Post by steve316 » Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:05 am

Gary C if you don't want to do EMC that is your choice. But stop making excuses; $6000 to get in on a team would be a bargain because after competition you could sell parts and get at least half your money back.

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Re: Race Engine Challenge

Post by randy331 » Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:13 am

steve316 wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:05 am
Gary C if you don't want to do EMC that is your choice. But stop making excuses; $6000 to get in on a team would be a bargain because after competition you could sell parts and get at least half your money back.
Just heard from the shop and the 391 cube we tested was back on the dyno with less rocker getting tuned up. It's sold and will be at the race track this weekend. Just as we tested it but less rocker, different oil pan and customers carb..

I'm sure Joe made money on it. His customers don't come in there expecting things for free.

Randy

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Re: Race Engine Challenge

Post by GARY C » Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:01 pm

steve316 wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:05 am
Gary C if you don't want to do EMC that is your choice. But stop making excuses; $6000 to get in on a team would be a bargain because after competition you could sell parts and get at least half your money back.
Thats only 1 part of what would be needed, I have a good bit of used parts so I know the market.

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Re: Race Engine Challenge

Post by GARY C » Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:02 pm

randy331 wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:13 am
steve316 wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:05 am
Gary C if you don't want to do EMC that is your choice. But stop making excuses; $6000 to get in on a team would be a bargain because after competition you could sell parts and get at least half your money back.
Just heard from the shop and the 391 cube we tested was back on the dyno with less rocker getting tuned up. It's sold and will be at the race track this weekend. Just as we tested it but less rocker, different oil pan and customers carb..

I'm sure Joe made money on it. His customers don't come in there expecting things for free.

Randy
Good to hear!

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Re: Race Engine Challenge

Post by Walter R. Malik » Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:17 pm

GARY C wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:06 am
You and I both know why you posted what you posted and why you want to play off the actually cost incurred from start to finish, at least now I know I can believe "half" of what you post!
Simply to exist in this world cost money. When you have a limited amount of money, It just depends upon where you wish to spend it and how you wish to sacrifice.

Personally ... eating hot dogs, salami and cheese sandwiches and sometimes buying some jelly to put on the peanut butter sandwiches throughout the year is the sacrifice I made to afford what I built.
My brother is a boater and he spent a whole lot more money than me this past summer and gets absolutely no monetary return at all for his costs.

Rick and Randy are totally correct ... it merely depends upon the priority and WHERE you elect to spend whatever money you have; the final cost of doing that engine is really immaterial.
http://www.rmcompetition.com
Specialty engine building at its finest.

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