Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100
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- Stan Weiss
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Re: Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100
What difference does it matter what is calculated first?
Stan
Weight = 335 lbs @ 1 foot radius (2 foot diameter) direct drive (1:1)
All you need is accurate time and RPM to calculate HP and torque.
Input
RPM__Time
5000 0.0
5100 0.131
5200 0.262
5300 0.392
5400 0.523
5500 0.654
5600 0.785
5700 0.917
5800 1.048
5900 1.178
6000 1.307
6100 1.435
6200 1.563
6300 1.691
6400 1.82
6500 1.95
6600 2.08
6700 2.211
6800 2.343
6900 2.475
7000 2.609
7100 2.744
7200 2.882
7300 3.021
7400 3.163
7500 3.309
7600 3.457
7700 3.609
7800 3.765
7900 3.925
8000 4.089
Output
___________________________Rear______Aero____Rolling___________Rear_W__Accele___Time____Rate
__RPM______MPH___Velocity__Wheel____dynamic__Resist.__Elapsed___Horse__ration__Differ____RPM
__________________ft/sec__Torque___Drag_-_HP___HP______Time_____Power__in_G's__ential____Sec
_5000.0_356.999__523.599____0.00______.000____.000____.0000______0.00__0.0000__0.0000____0.0
_5100.0_364.139__534.071__832.33______.000____.000____.1310____808.24__2.4846__0.1310__763.4
_5200.0_371.279__544.543__832.33______.000____.000____.2620____824.09__2.4846__0.1310__763.4
_5300.0_378.419__555.015__838.73______.000____.000____.3920____846.40__2.5037__0.1300__769.2
_5400.0_385.559__565.487__832.33______.000____.000____.5230____855.79__2.4846__0.1310__763.4
_5500.0_392.699__575.959__832.33______.000____.000____.6540____871.63__2.4846__0.1310__763.4
_5600.0_399.839__586.431__832.33______.000____.000____.7850____887.48__2.4846__0.1310__763.4
_5700.0_406.979__596.903__826.03______.000____.000____.9170____896.49__2.4657__0.1320__757.6
_5800.0_414.119__607.375__832.33______.000____.000___1.0480____919.18__2.4846__0.1310__763.4
_5900.0_421.259__617.847__838.73______.000____.000___1.1780____942.22__2.5037__0.1300__769.2
_6000.0_428.399__628.319__845.24______.000____.000___1.3070____965.62__2.5231__0.1290__775.2
_6100.0_435.539__638.791__851.84______.000____.000___1.4350____989.38__2.5428__0.1280__781.2
_6200.0_442.679__649.262__851.84______.000____.000___1.5630___1005.60__2.5428__0.1280__781.3
_6300.0_449.819__659.734__851.84______.000____.000___1.6910___1021.82__2.5428__0.1280__781.2
_6400.0_456.959__670.206__845.24______.000____.000___1.8200___1029.99__2.5231__0.1290__775.2
_6500.0_464.099__680.678__838.73______.000____.000___1.9500___1038.04__2.5037__0.1300__769.2
_6600.0_471.239__691.150__838.73______.000____.000___2.0800___1054.01__2.5037__0.1300__769.2
_6700.0_478.379__701.622__832.33______.000____.000___2.2110___1061.81__2.4846__0.1310__763.4
_6800.0_485.519__712.094__826.03______.000____.000___2.3430___1069.49__2.4657__0.1320__757.6
_6900.0_492.659__722.566__826.03______.000____.000___2.4750___1085.22__2.4657__0.1320__757.6
_7000.0_499.799__733.038__813.70______.000____.000___2.6090___1084.52__2.4289__0.1340__746.3
_7100.0_506.939__743.510__807.67______.000____.000___2.7440___1091.86__2.4110__0.1350__740.7
_7200.0_514.079__753.982__790.11______.000____.000___2.8820___1083.17__2.3585__0.1380__724.6
_7300.0_521.219__764.454__784.43______.000____.000___3.0210___1090.31__2.3416__0.1390__719.4
_7400.0_528.359__774.926__767.86______.000____.000___3.1630___1081.90__2.2921__0.1420__704.2
_7500.0_535.499__785.398__746.82______.000____.000___3.3090___1066.48__2.2293__0.1460__684.9
_7600.0_542.639__795.870__736.73______.000____.000___3.4570___1066.09__2.1992__0.1480__675.7
_7700.0_549.779__806.342__717.34______.000____.000___3.6090___1051.70__2.1413__0.1520__657.9
_7800.0_556.919__816.814__698.95______.000____.000___3.7650___1038.04__2.0864__0.1560__641.0
_7900.0_564.059__827.286__681.47______.000____.000___3.9250___1025.06__2.0342__0.1600__625.0
_8000.0_571.199__837.758__664.85______.000____.000___4.0890___1012.72__1.9846__0.1640__609.8
_Averages_________________803.84_______________________________995.48__________0.1363__737.2
Stan
Weight = 335 lbs @ 1 foot radius (2 foot diameter) direct drive (1:1)
All you need is accurate time and RPM to calculate HP and torque.
Input
RPM__Time
5000 0.0
5100 0.131
5200 0.262
5300 0.392
5400 0.523
5500 0.654
5600 0.785
5700 0.917
5800 1.048
5900 1.178
6000 1.307
6100 1.435
6200 1.563
6300 1.691
6400 1.82
6500 1.95
6600 2.08
6700 2.211
6800 2.343
6900 2.475
7000 2.609
7100 2.744
7200 2.882
7300 3.021
7400 3.163
7500 3.309
7600 3.457
7700 3.609
7800 3.765
7900 3.925
8000 4.089
Output
___________________________Rear______Aero____Rolling___________Rear_W__Accele___Time____Rate
__RPM______MPH___Velocity__Wheel____dynamic__Resist.__Elapsed___Horse__ration__Differ____RPM
__________________ft/sec__Torque___Drag_-_HP___HP______Time_____Power__in_G's__ential____Sec
_5000.0_356.999__523.599____0.00______.000____.000____.0000______0.00__0.0000__0.0000____0.0
_5100.0_364.139__534.071__832.33______.000____.000____.1310____808.24__2.4846__0.1310__763.4
_5200.0_371.279__544.543__832.33______.000____.000____.2620____824.09__2.4846__0.1310__763.4
_5300.0_378.419__555.015__838.73______.000____.000____.3920____846.40__2.5037__0.1300__769.2
_5400.0_385.559__565.487__832.33______.000____.000____.5230____855.79__2.4846__0.1310__763.4
_5500.0_392.699__575.959__832.33______.000____.000____.6540____871.63__2.4846__0.1310__763.4
_5600.0_399.839__586.431__832.33______.000____.000____.7850____887.48__2.4846__0.1310__763.4
_5700.0_406.979__596.903__826.03______.000____.000____.9170____896.49__2.4657__0.1320__757.6
_5800.0_414.119__607.375__832.33______.000____.000___1.0480____919.18__2.4846__0.1310__763.4
_5900.0_421.259__617.847__838.73______.000____.000___1.1780____942.22__2.5037__0.1300__769.2
_6000.0_428.399__628.319__845.24______.000____.000___1.3070____965.62__2.5231__0.1290__775.2
_6100.0_435.539__638.791__851.84______.000____.000___1.4350____989.38__2.5428__0.1280__781.2
_6200.0_442.679__649.262__851.84______.000____.000___1.5630___1005.60__2.5428__0.1280__781.3
_6300.0_449.819__659.734__851.84______.000____.000___1.6910___1021.82__2.5428__0.1280__781.2
_6400.0_456.959__670.206__845.24______.000____.000___1.8200___1029.99__2.5231__0.1290__775.2
_6500.0_464.099__680.678__838.73______.000____.000___1.9500___1038.04__2.5037__0.1300__769.2
_6600.0_471.239__691.150__838.73______.000____.000___2.0800___1054.01__2.5037__0.1300__769.2
_6700.0_478.379__701.622__832.33______.000____.000___2.2110___1061.81__2.4846__0.1310__763.4
_6800.0_485.519__712.094__826.03______.000____.000___2.3430___1069.49__2.4657__0.1320__757.6
_6900.0_492.659__722.566__826.03______.000____.000___2.4750___1085.22__2.4657__0.1320__757.6
_7000.0_499.799__733.038__813.70______.000____.000___2.6090___1084.52__2.4289__0.1340__746.3
_7100.0_506.939__743.510__807.67______.000____.000___2.7440___1091.86__2.4110__0.1350__740.7
_7200.0_514.079__753.982__790.11______.000____.000___2.8820___1083.17__2.3585__0.1380__724.6
_7300.0_521.219__764.454__784.43______.000____.000___3.0210___1090.31__2.3416__0.1390__719.4
_7400.0_528.359__774.926__767.86______.000____.000___3.1630___1081.90__2.2921__0.1420__704.2
_7500.0_535.499__785.398__746.82______.000____.000___3.3090___1066.48__2.2293__0.1460__684.9
_7600.0_542.639__795.870__736.73______.000____.000___3.4570___1066.09__2.1992__0.1480__675.7
_7700.0_549.779__806.342__717.34______.000____.000___3.6090___1051.70__2.1413__0.1520__657.9
_7800.0_556.919__816.814__698.95______.000____.000___3.7650___1038.04__2.0864__0.1560__641.0
_7900.0_564.059__827.286__681.47______.000____.000___3.9250___1025.06__2.0342__0.1600__625.0
_8000.0_571.199__837.758__664.85______.000____.000___4.0890___1012.72__1.9846__0.1640__609.8
_Averages_________________803.84_______________________________995.48__________0.1363__737.2
Stan Weiss/World Wide Enterprises
Offering Performance Software Since 1987
http://www.magneticlynx.com/carfor/carfor.htm
David Vizard & Stan Weiss' IOP / Flow / Induction Optimization Software
http://www.magneticlynx.com/DV
Offering Performance Software Since 1987
http://www.magneticlynx.com/carfor/carfor.htm
David Vizard & Stan Weiss' IOP / Flow / Induction Optimization Software
http://www.magneticlynx.com/DV
- Stan Weiss
- Vendor
- Posts: 4815
- Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 1:31 pm
- Location: Philadelphia, PA
- Contact:
Re: Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100
It is really simple.Stan Weiss wrote: ↑Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:09 am This says it all.
StanIn summary, here is all you need to know:
Energy = 0.5 * mass * v * v
Power = Energy / time (if power is continuous)
Power = RPM * Torque
Stan
Stan Weiss/World Wide Enterprises
Offering Performance Software Since 1987
http://www.magneticlynx.com/carfor/carfor.htm
David Vizard & Stan Weiss' IOP / Flow / Induction Optimization Software
http://www.magneticlynx.com/DV
Offering Performance Software Since 1987
http://www.magneticlynx.com/carfor/carfor.htm
David Vizard & Stan Weiss' IOP / Flow / Induction Optimization Software
http://www.magneticlynx.com/DV
Re: Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100
Some years back at lunch one of the guys (another engineer) told me he was going to the dyno that weekend to get his torwue peak so he knew where to shift.
I said you mean torwue curve right?
Him- no the torque peak so I don't go past it and go slower
We talked a bit about gears and highest power to the wheels and not confusing decreasing acceration in a low gear with even lower acceleration in a higher gear even thought the engine is making more torque....I remember being scared about how little basic math and science he knew and I'm certain he didn't understand any more after the conversation.
I said you mean torwue curve right?
Him- no the torque peak so I don't go past it and go slower
We talked a bit about gears and highest power to the wheels and not confusing decreasing acceration in a low gear with even lower acceleration in a higher gear even thought the engine is making more torque....I remember being scared about how little basic math and science he knew and I'm certain he didn't understand any more after the conversation.
Mark
Mechanical Engineer
Mechanical Engineer
Re: Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100
One way to look at is with a magical cvt with infinitely variable gear ratios. The way to optimise thrust/ torque in wheels is run it constant rpm of peak hp and vary the gearcratio. It's then clear what matters.
The thrust force is
Force = power / vehicle velocity
The thrust force is
Force = power / vehicle velocity
- Stan Weiss
- Vendor
- Posts: 4815
- Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 1:31 pm
- Location: Philadelphia, PA
- Contact:
Re: Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100
using a cvt
600 HP @ 6200
60 Foot ET = 1.1105
330 Foot ET = 3.6085
1/8 Mile ET = 5.8022
1/8 Mile MPH = 111.4074
1000 Foot ET = 7.7211
1/4 Mile ET = 9.3551
1/4 Mile MPH = 138.2749
Number of Gears Used 1/4 = 18172
Last Gear Ratio Used 1/4 = 3.1906
Number of Gears Used = 19936
Last Gear Ratio Used = 2.0527
600 HP @ 7200
60 Foot ET = 1.1103
330 Foot ET = 3.6081
1/8 Mile ET = 5.8014
1/8 Mile MPH = 111.4217
1000 Foot ET = 7.7201
1/4 Mile ET = 9.3539
1/4 Mile MPH = 138.2939
Number of Gears Used 1/4 = 17574
Last Gear Ratio Used 1/4 = 3.7052
Number of Gears Used = 19339
Last Gear Ratio Used = 2.3832
Stan
600 HP @ 6200
60 Foot ET = 1.1105
330 Foot ET = 3.6085
1/8 Mile ET = 5.8022
1/8 Mile MPH = 111.4074
1000 Foot ET = 7.7211
1/4 Mile ET = 9.3551
1/4 Mile MPH = 138.2749
Number of Gears Used 1/4 = 18172
Last Gear Ratio Used 1/4 = 3.1906
Number of Gears Used = 19936
Last Gear Ratio Used = 2.0527
600 HP @ 7200
60 Foot ET = 1.1103
330 Foot ET = 3.6081
1/8 Mile ET = 5.8014
1/8 Mile MPH = 111.4217
1000 Foot ET = 7.7201
1/4 Mile ET = 9.3539
1/4 Mile MPH = 138.2939
Number of Gears Used 1/4 = 17574
Last Gear Ratio Used 1/4 = 3.7052
Number of Gears Used = 19339
Last Gear Ratio Used = 2.3832
Stan
Stan Weiss/World Wide Enterprises
Offering Performance Software Since 1987
http://www.magneticlynx.com/carfor/carfor.htm
David Vizard & Stan Weiss' IOP / Flow / Induction Optimization Software
http://www.magneticlynx.com/DV
Offering Performance Software Since 1987
http://www.magneticlynx.com/carfor/carfor.htm
David Vizard & Stan Weiss' IOP / Flow / Induction Optimization Software
http://www.magneticlynx.com/DV
Re: Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100
One might think that logic was indisputable, but one would be wrong; there was a huge thread on this a couple of years back and a number of otherwise-knowledgeable posters strongly disagreed ...
Felix, qui potuit rerum cognscere causas.
Happy is he who can discover the cause of things.
Happy is he who can discover the cause of things.
Re: Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100
one might correctly draw the conclusion that the rpm of peak hp doesn't matter and that its only the hp the engine produces at the time, and if with a different gearbox with only a few ratios it did produce different results then it would be something else causing this e.g. a higher rpm engine is often gonna hold its power curve for longer such that you end up with a better more usable hp curve. so the correct conclusion is you want a good hp curve not a high rpm hp curve. rpm for the sake of rpm gets you nowhere
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Re: Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100
Data still shows that it's faster!
So does the hardware!
So does the hardware!
Re: Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100
when you compare apples to oranges. you've never tested the exact scenario in question to have any data that contributes anything to the very specific discussion here. wink all you like physics is physicsWarp Speed wrote: ↑Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:54 pm Data still shows that it's faster!
So does the hardware!
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Re: Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100
digger wrote: ↑Fri Nov 03, 2017 8:49 pmwhen you compare apples to oranges. you've never tested the exact scenario in question to have any data that contributes anything to the very specific discussion here. wink all you like physics is physicsWarp Speed wrote: ↑Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:54 pm Data still shows that it's faster!
So does the hardware!
Re: Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100
Yeah but the higher rpm engine will also drop more rpm on a shift, so it needs the longer power curve. Assuming it has the same number of gears as the low rpm engine.digger wrote: ↑Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:35 pm one might correctly draw the conclusion that the rpm of peak hp doesn't matter and that its only the hp the engine produces at the time, and if with a different gearbox with only a few ratios it did produce different results then it would be something else causing this e.g. a higher rpm engine is often gonna hold its power curve for longer such that you end up with a better more usable hp curve. so the correct conclusion is you want a good hp curve not a high rpm hp curve. rpm for the sake of rpm gets you nowhere
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- Posts: 3285
- Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2008 1:46 pm
- Location: NC
Re: Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100
Stan Weiss wrote: ↑Fri Nov 03, 2017 5:58 pm using a cvt
600 HP @ 6200
60 Foot ET = 1.1105
330 Foot ET = 3.6085
1/8 Mile ET = 5.8022
1/8 Mile MPH = 111.4074
1000 Foot ET = 7.7211
1/4 Mile ET = 9.3551
1/4 Mile MPH = 138.2749
Number of Gears Used 1/4 = 18172
Last Gear Ratio Used 1/4 = 3.1906
Number of Gears Used = 19936
Last Gear Ratio Used = 2.0527
600 HP @ 7200
60 Foot ET = 1.1103
330 Foot ET = 3.6081
1/8 Mile ET = 5.8014
1/8 Mile MPH = 111.4217
1000 Foot ET = 7.7201
1/4 Mile ET = 9.3539
1/4 Mile MPH = 138.2939
Number of Gears Used 1/4 = 17574
Last Gear Ratio Used 1/4 = 3.7052
Number of Gears Used = 19339
Last Gear Ratio Used = 2.3832
Stan
Re: Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100
the numbers look the same within 3-4 significant figures.... also using a finite number of gears as opposed to infinite number might have something to do with the differences in the program output. you know discretization of data...Warp Speed wrote: ↑Fri Nov 03, 2017 9:03 pmStan Weiss wrote: ↑Fri Nov 03, 2017 5:58 pm using a cvt
600 HP @ 6200
60 Foot ET = 1.1105
330 Foot ET = 3.6085
1/8 Mile ET = 5.8022
1/8 Mile MPH = 111.4074
1000 Foot ET = 7.7211
1/4 Mile ET = 9.3551
1/4 Mile MPH = 138.2749
Number of Gears Used 1/4 = 18172
Last Gear Ratio Used 1/4 = 3.1906
Number of Gears Used = 19936
Last Gear Ratio Used = 2.0527
600 HP @ 7200
60 Foot ET = 1.1103
330 Foot ET = 3.6081
1/8 Mile ET = 5.8014
1/8 Mile MPH = 111.4217
1000 Foot ET = 7.7201
1/4 Mile ET = 9.3539
1/4 Mile MPH = 138.2939
Number of Gears Used 1/4 = 17574
Last Gear Ratio Used 1/4 = 3.7052
Number of Gears Used = 19339
Last Gear Ratio Used = 2.3832
Stan
Re: Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100
Simulation shows advantage at 60ft...based on what? About 100 variables in chassis setup would sway 60 ft on any combo.digger wrote: ↑Fri Nov 03, 2017 9:11 pmthe numbers look the same within 3-4 significant figures.... also using a finite number of gears as opposed to infinite number might have something to do with the differences in the program output. you know discretization of data...Warp Speed wrote: ↑Fri Nov 03, 2017 9:03 pmStan Weiss wrote: ↑Fri Nov 03, 2017 5:58 pm using a cvt
600 HP @ 6200
60 Foot ET = 1.1105
330 Foot ET = 3.6085
1/8 Mile ET = 5.8022
1/8 Mile MPH = 111.4074
1000 Foot ET = 7.7211
1/4 Mile ET = 9.3551
1/4 Mile MPH = 138.2749
Number of Gears Used 1/4 = 18172
Last Gear Ratio Used 1/4 = 3.1906
Number of Gears Used = 19936
Last Gear Ratio Used = 2.0527
600 HP @ 7200
60 Foot ET = 1.1103
330 Foot ET = 3.6081
1/8 Mile ET = 5.8014
1/8 Mile MPH = 111.4217
1000 Foot ET = 7.7201
1/4 Mile ET = 9.3539
1/4 Mile MPH = 138.2939
Number of Gears Used 1/4 = 17574
Last Gear Ratio Used 1/4 = 3.7052
Number of Gears Used = 19339
Last Gear Ratio Used = 2.3832
Stan
Also this advantage shown at 60 ft should extrapolate out to a much higher advantage at 1/4 mile. It doesn’t indicating the lower rpm engine is outperforming the higher rpm combination. Per the simulation....
Re: Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100
0.0002sec @ 60ft
0.0012 @ 1/4
0.01mph trap
so in other words it is the same given how it was calculated using a sim program
0.0012 @ 1/4
0.01mph trap
so in other words it is the same given how it was calculated using a sim program