Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100

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Stan Weiss
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Re: Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100

Post by Stan Weiss » Fri Nov 03, 2017 9:49 am

What difference does it matter what is calculated first?

Stan

Weight = 335 lbs @ 1 foot radius (2 foot diameter) direct drive (1:1)

All you need is accurate time and RPM to calculate HP and torque.

Input

RPM__Time
5000 0.0
5100 0.131
5200 0.262
5300 0.392
5400 0.523
5500 0.654
5600 0.785
5700 0.917
5800 1.048
5900 1.178
6000 1.307
6100 1.435
6200 1.563
6300 1.691
6400 1.82
6500 1.95
6600 2.08
6700 2.211
6800 2.343
6900 2.475
7000 2.609
7100 2.744
7200 2.882
7300 3.021
7400 3.163
7500 3.309
7600 3.457
7700 3.609
7800 3.765
7900 3.925
8000 4.089

Output


___________________________Rear______Aero____Rolling___________Rear_W__Accele___Time____Rate
__RPM______MPH___Velocity__Wheel____dynamic__Resist.__Elapsed___Horse__ration__Differ____RPM
__________________ft/sec__Torque___Drag_-_HP___HP______Time_____Power__in_G's__ential____Sec

_5000.0_356.999__523.599____0.00______.000____.000____.0000______0.00__0.0000__0.0000____0.0
_5100.0_364.139__534.071__832.33______.000____.000____.1310____808.24__2.4846__0.1310__763.4
_5200.0_371.279__544.543__832.33______.000____.000____.2620____824.09__2.4846__0.1310__763.4
_5300.0_378.419__555.015__838.73______.000____.000____.3920____846.40__2.5037__0.1300__769.2
_5400.0_385.559__565.487__832.33______.000____.000____.5230____855.79__2.4846__0.1310__763.4
_5500.0_392.699__575.959__832.33______.000____.000____.6540____871.63__2.4846__0.1310__763.4
_5600.0_399.839__586.431__832.33______.000____.000____.7850____887.48__2.4846__0.1310__763.4
_5700.0_406.979__596.903__826.03______.000____.000____.9170____896.49__2.4657__0.1320__757.6
_5800.0_414.119__607.375__832.33______.000____.000___1.0480____919.18__2.4846__0.1310__763.4
_5900.0_421.259__617.847__838.73______.000____.000___1.1780____942.22__2.5037__0.1300__769.2
_6000.0_428.399__628.319__845.24______.000____.000___1.3070____965.62__2.5231__0.1290__775.2
_6100.0_435.539__638.791__851.84______.000____.000___1.4350____989.38__2.5428__0.1280__781.2
_6200.0_442.679__649.262__851.84______.000____.000___1.5630___1005.60__2.5428__0.1280__781.3
_6300.0_449.819__659.734__851.84______.000____.000___1.6910___1021.82__2.5428__0.1280__781.2
_6400.0_456.959__670.206__845.24______.000____.000___1.8200___1029.99__2.5231__0.1290__775.2
_6500.0_464.099__680.678__838.73______.000____.000___1.9500___1038.04__2.5037__0.1300__769.2
_6600.0_471.239__691.150__838.73______.000____.000___2.0800___1054.01__2.5037__0.1300__769.2
_6700.0_478.379__701.622__832.33______.000____.000___2.2110___1061.81__2.4846__0.1310__763.4
_6800.0_485.519__712.094__826.03______.000____.000___2.3430___1069.49__2.4657__0.1320__757.6
_6900.0_492.659__722.566__826.03______.000____.000___2.4750___1085.22__2.4657__0.1320__757.6
_7000.0_499.799__733.038__813.70______.000____.000___2.6090___1084.52__2.4289__0.1340__746.3
_7100.0_506.939__743.510__807.67______.000____.000___2.7440___1091.86__2.4110__0.1350__740.7
_7200.0_514.079__753.982__790.11______.000____.000___2.8820___1083.17__2.3585__0.1380__724.6
_7300.0_521.219__764.454__784.43______.000____.000___3.0210___1090.31__2.3416__0.1390__719.4
_7400.0_528.359__774.926__767.86______.000____.000___3.1630___1081.90__2.2921__0.1420__704.2
_7500.0_535.499__785.398__746.82______.000____.000___3.3090___1066.48__2.2293__0.1460__684.9
_7600.0_542.639__795.870__736.73______.000____.000___3.4570___1066.09__2.1992__0.1480__675.7
_7700.0_549.779__806.342__717.34______.000____.000___3.6090___1051.70__2.1413__0.1520__657.9
_7800.0_556.919__816.814__698.95______.000____.000___3.7650___1038.04__2.0864__0.1560__641.0
_7900.0_564.059__827.286__681.47______.000____.000___3.9250___1025.06__2.0342__0.1600__625.0
_8000.0_571.199__837.758__664.85______.000____.000___4.0890___1012.72__1.9846__0.1640__609.8

_Averages_________________803.84_______________________________995.48__________0.1363__737.2
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Re: Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100

Post by Stan Weiss » Fri Nov 03, 2017 9:59 am

Stan Weiss wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:09 am
This says it all.
In summary, here is all you need to know:

Energy = 0.5 * mass * v * v
Power = Energy / time (if power is continuous)
Power = RPM * Torque
Stan
It is really simple. :)

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Re: Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100

Post by mk e » Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:14 am

Some years back at lunch one of the guys (another engineer) told me he was going to the dyno that weekend to get his torwue peak so he knew where to shift.

I said you mean torwue curve right?

Him- no the torque peak so I don't go past it and go slower

We talked a bit about gears and highest power to the wheels and not confusing decreasing acceration in a low gear with even lower acceleration in a higher gear even thought the engine is making more torque....I remember being scared about how little basic math and science he knew and I'm certain he didn't understand any more after the conversation.
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Re: Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100

Post by digger » Fri Nov 03, 2017 5:20 pm

One way to look at is with a magical cvt with infinitely variable gear ratios. The way to optimise thrust/ torque in wheels is run it constant rpm of peak hp and vary the gearcratio. It's then clear what matters.

The thrust force is

Force = power / vehicle velocity

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Re: Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100

Post by Stan Weiss » Fri Nov 03, 2017 5:58 pm

using a cvt

600 HP @ 6200
60 Foot ET = 1.1105
330 Foot ET = 3.6085
1/8 Mile ET = 5.8022
1/8 Mile MPH = 111.4074
1000 Foot ET = 7.7211
1/4 Mile ET = 9.3551
1/4 Mile MPH = 138.2749

Number of Gears Used 1/4 = 18172
Last Gear Ratio Used 1/4 = 3.1906

Number of Gears Used = 19936
Last Gear Ratio Used = 2.0527

600 HP @ 7200
60 Foot ET = 1.1103
330 Foot ET = 3.6081
1/8 Mile ET = 5.8014
1/8 Mile MPH = 111.4217
1000 Foot ET = 7.7201
1/4 Mile ET = 9.3539
1/4 Mile MPH = 138.2939

Number of Gears Used 1/4 = 17574
Last Gear Ratio Used 1/4 = 3.7052

Number of Gears Used = 19339
Last Gear Ratio Used = 2.3832

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Re: Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100

Post by MadBill » Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:01 pm

digger wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 5:20 pm
One way to look at is with a magical cvt with infinitely variable gear ratios. The way to optimise thrust/ torque in wheels is run it constant rpm of peak hp and vary the gearcratio. It's then clear what matters...
One might think that logic was indisputable, but one would be wrong; there was a huge thread on this a couple of years back and a number of otherwise-knowledgeable posters strongly disagreed ... #-o
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Re: Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100

Post by digger » Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:35 pm

MadBill wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:01 pm
digger wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 5:20 pm
One way to look at is with a magical cvt with infinitely variable gear ratios. The way to optimise thrust/ torque in wheels is run it constant rpm of peak hp and vary the gearcratio. It's then clear what matters...
One might think that logic was indisputable, but one would be wrong; there was a huge thread on this a couple of years back and a number of otherwise-knowledgeable posters strongly disagreed ... #-o
one might correctly draw the conclusion that the rpm of peak hp doesn't matter and that its only the hp the engine produces at the time, and if with a different gearbox with only a few ratios it did produce different results then it would be something else causing this e.g. a higher rpm engine is often gonna hold its power curve for longer such that you end up with a better more usable hp curve. so the correct conclusion is you want a good hp curve not a high rpm hp curve. rpm for the sake of rpm gets you nowhere

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Re: Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100

Post by Warp Speed » Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:54 pm

Data still shows that it's faster!
So does the hardware! :wink:

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Re: Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100

Post by digger » Fri Nov 03, 2017 8:49 pm

Warp Speed wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:54 pm
Data still shows that it's faster!
So does the hardware! :wink:
when you compare apples to oranges. you've never tested the exact scenario in question to have any data that contributes anything to the very specific discussion here. wink all you like physics is physics

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Re: Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100

Post by Warp Speed » Fri Nov 03, 2017 8:57 pm

digger wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 8:49 pm
Warp Speed wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:54 pm
Data still shows that it's faster!
So does the hardware! :wink:
when you compare apples to oranges. you've never tested the exact scenario in question to have any data that contributes anything to the very specific discussion here. wink all you like physics is physics
:wink:

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Re: Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100

Post by Splitter » Fri Nov 03, 2017 9:00 pm

digger wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:35 pm
one might correctly draw the conclusion that the rpm of peak hp doesn't matter and that its only the hp the engine produces at the time, and if with a different gearbox with only a few ratios it did produce different results then it would be something else causing this e.g. a higher rpm engine is often gonna hold its power curve for longer such that you end up with a better more usable hp curve. so the correct conclusion is you want a good hp curve not a high rpm hp curve. rpm for the sake of rpm gets you nowhere
Yeah but the higher rpm engine will also drop more rpm on a shift, so it needs the longer power curve. Assuming it has the same number of gears as the low rpm engine.

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Re: Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100

Post by Warp Speed » Fri Nov 03, 2017 9:03 pm

Stan Weiss wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 5:58 pm
using a cvt

600 HP @ 6200
60 Foot ET = 1.1105
330 Foot ET = 3.6085
1/8 Mile ET = 5.8022
1/8 Mile MPH = 111.4074
1000 Foot ET = 7.7211
1/4 Mile ET = 9.3551
1/4 Mile MPH = 138.2749

Number of Gears Used 1/4 = 18172
Last Gear Ratio Used 1/4 = 3.1906

Number of Gears Used = 19936
Last Gear Ratio Used = 2.0527

600 HP @ 7200
60 Foot ET = 1.1103
330 Foot ET = 3.6081
1/8 Mile ET = 5.8014
1/8 Mile MPH = 111.4217
1000 Foot ET = 7.7201
1/4 Mile ET = 9.3539
1/4 Mile MPH = 138.2939

Number of Gears Used 1/4 = 17574
Last Gear Ratio Used 1/4 = 3.7052

Number of Gears Used = 19339
Last Gear Ratio Used = 2.3832

Stan

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Re: Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100

Post by digger » Fri Nov 03, 2017 9:11 pm

Warp Speed wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 9:03 pm
Stan Weiss wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 5:58 pm
using a cvt

600 HP @ 6200
60 Foot ET = 1.1105
330 Foot ET = 3.6085
1/8 Mile ET = 5.8022
1/8 Mile MPH = 111.4074
1000 Foot ET = 7.7211
1/4 Mile ET = 9.3551
1/4 Mile MPH = 138.2749

Number of Gears Used 1/4 = 18172
Last Gear Ratio Used 1/4 = 3.1906

Number of Gears Used = 19936
Last Gear Ratio Used = 2.0527

600 HP @ 7200
60 Foot ET = 1.1103
330 Foot ET = 3.6081
1/8 Mile ET = 5.8014
1/8 Mile MPH = 111.4217
1000 Foot ET = 7.7201
1/4 Mile ET = 9.3539
1/4 Mile MPH = 138.2939

Number of Gears Used 1/4 = 17574
Last Gear Ratio Used 1/4 = 3.7052

Number of Gears Used = 19339
Last Gear Ratio Used = 2.3832

Stan
the numbers look the same within 3-4 significant figures.... :wink: also using a finite number of gears as opposed to infinite number might have something to do with the differences in the program output. you know discretization of data...

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Re: Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100

Post by stealth » Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:36 pm

digger wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 9:11 pm
Warp Speed wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 9:03 pm
Stan Weiss wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 5:58 pm
using a cvt

600 HP @ 6200
60 Foot ET = 1.1105
330 Foot ET = 3.6085
1/8 Mile ET = 5.8022
1/8 Mile MPH = 111.4074
1000 Foot ET = 7.7211
1/4 Mile ET = 9.3551
1/4 Mile MPH = 138.2749

Number of Gears Used 1/4 = 18172
Last Gear Ratio Used 1/4 = 3.1906

Number of Gears Used = 19936
Last Gear Ratio Used = 2.0527

600 HP @ 7200
60 Foot ET = 1.1103
330 Foot ET = 3.6081
1/8 Mile ET = 5.8014
1/8 Mile MPH = 111.4217
1000 Foot ET = 7.7201
1/4 Mile ET = 9.3539
1/4 Mile MPH = 138.2939

Number of Gears Used 1/4 = 17574
Last Gear Ratio Used 1/4 = 3.7052

Number of Gears Used = 19339
Last Gear Ratio Used = 2.3832

Stan
the numbers look the same within 3-4 significant figures.... :wink: also using a finite number of gears as opposed to infinite number might have something to do with the differences in the program output. you know discretization of data...
Simulation shows advantage at 60ft...based on what? About 100 variables in chassis setup would sway 60 ft on any combo.

Also this advantage shown at 60 ft should extrapolate out to a much higher advantage at 1/4 mile. It doesn’t indicating the lower rpm engine is outperforming the higher rpm combination. Per the simulation....
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Re: Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100

Post by digger » Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:59 pm

0.0002sec @ 60ft
0.0012 @ 1/4
0.01mph trap

so in other words it is the same given how it was calculated using a sim program

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