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Re: Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100

Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 12:27 pm
by Stan Weiss
While we all can have opinions they are indeed not fact. That said I have yet to see any dyno sheets or anything else posted from the 600 HP @ 7200 is faster group that could be analyzed as to if or why.

Stan

Re: Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100

Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 12:30 pm
by The Radius Kid
Stan Weiss wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2017 9:02 am
Has anyone here ever run a CVT? The basic principal is that you are running at the set RPM. That means HP below and above that RPM (In this case peak HP RPM) does not come into play during the acceleration process.

Stan
The F1 guys tried a few years back.I forget what that actual results were,but the drivers seemed to like it.

Re: Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100

Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 12:31 pm
by stealth
Frankshaft wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2017 12:13 pm
Stealth, I just noticed that the statement that is at the bottom of your posts, fits this really well. lol
Thanks Frankshaft...I invision the contestants of this thread ...look on their faces while reading this thread... :D

Re: Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100

Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 12:33 pm
by The Radius Kid
stealth wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2017 12:31 pm
Frankshaft wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2017 12:13 pm
Stealth, I just noticed that the statement that is at the bottom of your posts, fits this really well. lol
Thanks Frankshaft...I invision the contestants of this thread ...look on their faces while reading this thread... :D
LOVE that movie!

Re: Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100

Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 1:11 pm
by John Wallace
Stealth, I just noticed that the statement that is at the bottom of your posts, fits this really well. lol
So, which are you?
The reasonable man or the unreasonable one?

:mrgreen:

The problem I see here is everyone is adding their own 'questions' to the OP question?
Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100
Nothing more nothing less.

Same HP but at a different peak RPM.
PERIOD.

:)

Re: Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100

Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 11:28 pm
by statsystems
Look to Pro Stock for the answer.

With the RPM limit the dodge is not even close to competitive.

It's that simple.

Re: Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100

Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 11:59 pm
by digger
statsystems wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2017 11:28 pm
Look to Pro Stock for the answer.

With the RPM limit the dodge is not even close to competitive.

It's that simple.
post up the two hp curves....

Re: Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100

Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:29 pm
by statsystems
digger wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2017 11:59 pm
statsystems wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2017 11:28 pm
Look to Pro Stock for the answer.

With the RPM limit the dodge is not even close to competitive.

It's that simple.
post up the two hp curves....
Or, you can google what Chris Mcgaha said in an interview he gave.

Re: Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100

Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:40 am
by Stan Weiss
So what did Chris say? From what I have heard the MoPar head is not as good as the GM head with the 10500 RPM rule. When there was unlimited RPM the MoPar's ran better but still had no advantage over the GM's.

Stan

Re: Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100

Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:10 pm
by pastry_chef
I'm not sure if this is the Chris interview. but related:

HRM] It seems some drivers hit the rev limiter before the lights. Is this some sort of strategy or advantage?

CM] The reason you do it is because of the gearing. You don’t make power at 11-3 or 11-4. It goes back to your fallback—what do you fall back on for a gear change? So you try to control that and hit as high an rpm as you can. That’s why the rpm got higher overall. The Dodges had to do that. They set the pace because they didn’t make the torque, yet 400 to 500 rpm above a Chevy they start to make the same power. So when you’ve done everything you can, do you go out on a limb? You have a gear in the back and it’s crossing at 10,520 rpm, but putting in a different ratio gear, you might cross at 10,620 rpm. Putting different tires on you see if it crosses 75 rpm higher. Change our transmission and then from the start to the eighth-mile it changes our splits and the fallback, so by half-track we get enough to pick the car up. Then at the lights, you’ll hear us on the chip. When we didn’t have the limiter, we knew we had enough room—we didn’t care if it crossed 100 rpm higher. It might hurt a couple of valvesprings, but it’s what you did to go an extra hundredth of a second faster. We were pressing the envelope, but nobody knew that because we would move the chip up.

Re: Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100

Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:19 pm
by Frankshaft
So from the above, a real world example, the obvious answer to the op question is answered. Also, the mopars who had an advantage at the time, needed to rev 400-500 rpm higher, and could make near the same power as the others, NEAR the same, but the higher rpm allowed more gear, which was an advantage. Thread over, lol.

Re: Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100

Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:36 pm
by blackford
Has anyone asked the question whether this applies to other situations besides the 1/4" mile?

In Nascar, the faster car must be the one that makes more power at higher RPM which seems to result in a higher top speed. It's not that easy since the car has to accelerate out of the turns onto the straight. Andretti drove Fairlanes in Nascar back in the 60s. He was new to the team and they gave him 427s that had about 500 rpm less usable range (and admittedly probably more HP as a result). He was always slower than his team mates. One day, he went in the shop and asked the mechanic about several engines sitting on stands each of which had the drivers names on them. He asked if there was any difference between the engines and the mechanic said no. Andretti swapped name tags and the mechanic freaked out. He said "what is the problem if they are all the same". After that incident he was given the same engine as his team mates and went on to win races.

In my own experience, I have a mustang with a 331 that makes usable power to 7200 rpm. I have a T5z and had 3.50s in the rear and decided to go with 3.89s because the higher RPM allowed me to go nearly 60 mph in 1st gear...too fast. With the 3.89s, its quicker off the line and just plain quicker. Higher rpm seems to allow for higher gear ratio which seems like an advantage to me. I may be simplifying so let me have it! :D

Re: Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100

Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:52 pm
by Stan Weiss
pastry_chef wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:10 pm
I'm not sure if this is the Chris interview. but related:

HRM] It seems some drivers hit the rev limiter before the lights. Is this some sort of strategy or advantage?

CM] The reason you do it is because of the gearing. You don’t make power at 11-3 or 11-4. It goes back to your fallback—what do you fall back on for a gear change? So you try to control that and hit as high an rpm as you can. That’s why the rpm got higher overall. The Dodges had to do that. They set the pace because they didn’t make the torque, yet 400 to 500 rpm above a Chevy they start to make the same power. So when you’ve done everything you can, do you go out on a limb? You have a gear in the back and it’s crossing at 10,520 rpm, but putting in a different ratio gear, you might cross at 10,620 rpm. Putting different tires on you see if it crosses 75 rpm higher. Change our transmission and then from the start to the eighth-mile it changes our splits and the fallback, so by half-track we get enough to pick the car up. Then at the lights, you’ll hear us on the chip. When we didn’t have the limiter, we knew we had enough room—we didn’t care if it crossed 100 rpm higher. It might hurt a couple of valvesprings, but it’s what you did to go an extra hundredth of a second faster. We were pressing the envelope, but nobody knew that because we would move the chip up.
Chris did not use that nasty word TORQUE

That could cause another 10 to 15 pages of posts.:)

Stan

Re: Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100

Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:55 pm
by Stan Weiss
Frankshaft wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:19 pm
So from the above, a real world example, the obvious answer to the op question is answered. Also, the mopars who had an advantage at the time, needed to rev 400-500 rpm higher, and could make near the same power as the others, NEAR the same, but the higher rpm allowed more gear, which was an advantage. Thread over, lol.
So you came to that conclusion based on what was posted above? :shock: [-X

Stan

Re: Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100

Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:59 pm
by Frankshaft
No, from actually racing. Not using simiulators and assumptions, which come in handy don't get me wrong. But I know what's faster in the real world.

No comment on my cvt tranny reply to your question? It's a viable question, and a good example