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Re: Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100

Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 9:00 am
by Frankshaft
Stan Weiss wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:24 pm
Frankshaft wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:44 pm
Stan Weiss wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:19 pm


Jay,
People were asking for someone to post some numbers or dyno sheets or graphs. I took numbers from a 609 ci engine that made more than double the 600 HP. I shifted the torque curve and applied a correction fact and printout numbers for 6200 RPM then did the same for 7200. The BMEP numbers were useless but I did not take the time to remove them. So no I would not say any of those numbers are real.

Stan
So, you for all practical purposes, made up a bunch of numbers that you admit aren't real to win your argument? [-X
L M A O

I never ran an simulations with that data. So I would have no idea what those curves would prove or not prove. The only numbers I used to do any calculations were 600 HP @ 6200 RPM and 600 HP @ 7200.

Stan
Stan, I hope you know I am not being confrontational with my replys. The internet can't display tone. I am just trying to lighten the whole thing. For the record, I respect your knowledge and am impressed with your math/physics ability. You remind me of a physics teacher I had back in school. You too John. I use your calculators all the time. Ironically, I used one of your calculators in this thread for one of my examples.

Re: Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100

Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 9:14 am
by mk e
John Wallace wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 8:11 am
So out of all of these pages, no one has an engine with dyno sheet 600 HP at whatever RPM and someone else with a dyno sheet 600 HP engine at a higher/lower RPM peak?

:roll:
They probably do, but what I was saying is that they almost certainly won't be exactly proportional so more is changing than just the rpm the hp peaks at. There are some nice oem turbo engines with toque curve that is dead flat for 3000 rpm, thrn there are are peaky little things the lose 20% of their torque at +/- 1000 rpm of peak.....but there are also not peaky high raving engines.

If all we know is the hp is the same but rpm is different then who knows which is faster, I sure don't without a lot more information. All things being equal other than the peak rpm then they are the same, but that is a HUGE assumption.

Re: Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100

Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 9:35 am
by Stan Weiss
The problem is that this an almost impossible deal to get an apples to apples comparison. That is way I tried to simplify it some posts back.
Stan Weiss wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 1:26 pm
Lets simplify this. Which Is Faster? - 600 hp @ 6200 RPM or 600 hp @ 6200 RPM

Based on the very limited information I have given I would say they are the same.

Now how about we talk about what differences in the engines would make one faster than the other.

I will start by wanting to know what peak torque was and at what RPM for each engine.

Stan
Even here it is probably impossible to find dyno sheets that match at any given point.

This is the closest I could find.

Stan

Engine_Size_=__360.4219_ci

Dyno_Barometric_Pressure_=_29.32_-_Dyno_Vapor_Pressure_=_0.15_-_Dyno_Air_Temperature_=_65.0

_________________________________Fuel___________UnCorr__UnCorr_UnCorr_Correct___A/F
__RPM___Horse__Torque___BMEP____lb/hr_____BSFC______HP__Torque___BMEP__Factor__Ratio____SCFM____VE%
_3500___372.1___558.4__233.6___161.27____.4500___358.4___537.8__225.0__1.0384__10.70___376.8__106.9
_3600___381.8___556.9__233.0___162.67____.4400___369.7___539.4__225.7__1.0326__10.70___380.0__104.8
_3700___393.2___558.2__233.5___162.51____.4300___377.9___536.5__224.5__1.0405__10.90___386.8__103.8
_3800___403.7___558.0__233.5___163.44____.4200___389.1___537.8__225.0__1.0375__11.00___392.5__102.6
_3900___415.2___559.1__233.9___164.11____.4100___400.3___539.0__225.5__1.0374__11.20___401.3__102.2
_4000___427.9___561.9__235.1___163.37____.4000___408.4___536.3__224.4__1.0477__11.50___410.2__101.8
_4100___439.0___562.3__235.3___164.06____.3900___420.7___538.9__225.5__1.0435__11.70___419.1__101.5
_4200___450.6___563.5__235.8___165.31____.3800___435.0___544.0__227.6__1.0358__11.80___425.9__100.7
_4300___462.4___564.7__236.3___166.98____.3800___439.4___536.7__224.6__1.0522__12.00___437.5__101.0
_4400___473.2___564.9__236.3___168.61____.3700___455.7___543.9__227.6__1.0385__12.20___449.1__101.4
_4500___483.7___564.6__236.2___170.31____.3700___460.3___537.2__224.8__1.0509__12.20___453.7__100.1
_4600___494.2___564.3__236.1___173.34____.3600___481.5___549.7__230.0__1.0264__12.30___465.5__100.5
_4700___503.8___563.0__235.5___175.57____.3600___487.7___545.0__228.0__1.0330__12.40___475.3__100.4
_4800___514.0___562.4__235.3___176.89____.3600___491.4___537.6__224.9__1.0460__12.60___486.7__100.7
_4900___524.4___562.1__235.2___179.14____.3600___497.6___533.4__223.2__1.0539__12.80___500.6__101.5
_5000___533.8___560.7__234.6___181.31____.3500___518.0___544.1__227.7__1.0304__12.80___506.7__100.6
_5100___542.8___559.0__233.9___182.83____.3500___522.4___537.9__225.1__1.0391__13.00___519.0__101.0
_5200___550.3___555.8__232.5___186.26____.3500___532.2___537.5__224.9__1.0340__13.10___532.8__101.7
_5300___556.9___551.8__230.9___188.93____.3500___539.8___534.9__223.8__1.0316__13.20___544.5__102.0
_5400___564.4___549.0__229.7___192.57____.3600___534.9___520.3__217.7__1.0552__13.20___555.0__102.1
_5500___571.2___545.4__228.2___195.12____.3600___542.0___517.6__216.5__1.0538__13.20___562.4__101.5
_5600___576.2___540.4__226.1___197.94____.3600___549.8___515.7__215.8__1.0479__13.20___570.5__101.2
_5700___580.6___535.0__223.8___200.64____.3600___557.3___513.5__214.9__1.0417__13.30___582.6__101.5
_5800___586.0___530.6__222.0___202.94____.3600___563.7___510.5__213.6__1.0395__13.30___589.3__100.9
_5900___592.1___527.0__220.5___204.12____.3600___567.0___504.7__211.2__1.0442__13.40___597.2__100.5
_6000___593.9___519.9__217.5___209.41____.3700___566.0___495.4__207.3__1.0493__13.30___608.1__100.6
_6100___598.3___515.2__215.5___213.31____.3700___576.5___496.4__207.7__1.0378__13.20___614.8__100.1
_6200___603.5___511.2__213.9___216.38____.3700___584.8___495.4__207.3__1.0319__13.10___618.9___99.1
_6300___602.7___502.5__210.2___220.62____.3800___580.6___484.0__202.5__1.0382__13.00___626.2___98.7
AVG:
_4900___510.1___549.2__229.8___183.10____.3769___489.9___527.6__220.8__________12.42___499.6__101.4
MIN:
_3500___372.1___502.5__210.2___161.27____.3500___358.4___484.0__202.5__________10.70___376.8___98.7
MAX:
_6300___603.5___564.9__236.3___220.62____.4500___584.8___549.7__230.0__________13.40___626.2__106.9

Average_based_on_=_29_points

Re: Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100

Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:50 am
by Stan Weiss
OK, this is within 1 HP but at 200 less RPM.

Stan
_Corrected Torque and Power_ from test SF47023.pdf

Re: Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100

Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:48 pm
by cjperformance
John Wallace wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 8:11 am
So out of all of these pages, no one has an engine with dyno sheet 600 HP at whatever RPM and someone else with a dyno sheet 600 HP engine at a higher/lower RPM peak?

:roll:
And with the same curve!

Re: Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100

Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 5:54 pm
by gvx
EngineTech1 wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2017 10:47 am
John Wallace wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2017 10:20 am
like if you had the 600 hp @6200 engine vs. a 580 hp engine, how much RPM would you need to turn to take advantage of all that gear multiplication and outrun the 600 hp engine?
WOuldn't this be easy?

Shift the same engine at the torque peak (instead of above HP peak rpm), which usually is like 1500-2000 RPM lower?
(with equivalent less HP)

:?:
No way man. You gotta take advantage of that RPM for FULL HP right? This is maximum effort right? If RPM and gear are really worth more than power then there should be some point where with enough RPM and gear you can actually overcome a power DEFICIT.
This whole thread is jacked up from the start and asking the wrong question. A better question would be, how much more RPM and gear ratio would you need to have to overcome a 40 hp deficit? Like if you had an engine that made peak power of 600hp at 6200 rpm in a perfectly set up and geared car then how much more rpm and more gear would you need to make that same car run the same or faster with an engine that made 560 hp? 9000 rpm? 10,000 rpm?
Where you are missing it at is to make the 600 horsepower at 7100 RPMs the engine is making less torque than the 600 horsepower engine at 6200 RPMs. Your thinking is only correct if both engines made equal torque but one had more RPM capability. So if you optimize the chassis for each engine all is for practical purposes equal.

Re: Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100

Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 6:13 pm
by roc
C'mon guys, only 28 pages... let me help a bit... what about the Cummins ISX15 engine, with 600 hp @ 1900 rpm? (2,050 lb-ft at 1200 rpm) :roll:

Re: Which Is Faster

Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 6:44 am
by In-Tech
As a recap, here is the original question on post 1.
I'am going to ask the same question I asked on the Chevelle forum.


"Which engine is faster down a dragstrip and why"




A 427 that makes 600 HP @ 6200 RPM
A 427 that makes 600 HP @ 7100 RPM

?
So I still stand by my original response below and here is a simple example of why. Let's go on ahead and say both engines are run in a 4000lb car even though that wasn't part of the question. The 600hp @ 6200 RPM car that has a 4000 stall T350 with a 4:11 gear is gonna whip the shit out of the 600hp @ 7100 RPM powerglide car with a stock convertor and 3.08 gears.

Now, that being said, my blown alcohol 427(actually 440" BBC) wasn't turning 10,700 RPM each pass for nothin :wink: :mrgreen:


In-Tech wrote:
Tue Sep 19, 2017 1:40 am
Trotter: Alright, alright. Now, Miss Vito, being an expert on general automotive knowledge, can you tell me what would be the correct ignition timing be on a 1955 Bellaire Chevrolet with a 327 cubic engine and a 4-barrel carburetor.

Ms. Vito: It's a bullshit question.

Trotter: Does that mean that you can't answer it?

Ms. Vito: It's a bullshit question. It's impossible to answer.

Trotter: It's impossible because you don't know the answer!

Ms. Vito: Nobody could answer that question!

Trotter: Your Honor, I move to disqualify Miss Vito as a expert witness.

Judge Haller: Can you answer the question?

Ms. Vito: No. It is a trick question.

Judge Haller: Why is it a trick question?

Vincent Gambini: [to his clients] Watch this.

Ms. Vito: 'Cause Chevy didn't make a 327 in '55. The 327 didn't come out til '62. And it wasn't offered in the Bellaire with the 4-barrel carburetor til '64. However, in 1964 the correct ignition timing would be 4 degrees before top dead center.

Re: Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100

Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 6:59 am
by John Wallace
A 427 that makes 600 HP @ 6200 RPM
A 427 that makes 600 HP @ 7100 RPM
Ms. Vito: It's a bullshit question.
You should be saying: It's Bullsh!t If that 427 can't make more than 600 HP at 7100 RPM !

:mrgreen:

Re: Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100

Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:11 am
by In-Tech
Hahahaha :lol: :lol: :lol: =D> =D>

Re: Which Is Faster

Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:59 am
by Stan Weiss
In-Tech wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 6:44 am
As a recap, here is the original question on post 1.
I'am going to ask the same question I asked on the Chevelle forum.


"Which engine is faster down a dragstrip and why"




A 427 that makes 600 HP @ 6200 RPM
A 427 that makes 600 HP @ 7100 RPM

?
So I still stand by my original response below and here is a simple example of why. Let's go on ahead and say both engines are run in a 4000lb car even though that wasn't part of the question. The 600hp @ 6200 RPM car that has a 4000 stall T350 with a 4:11 gear is gonna whip the shit out of the 600hp @ 7100 RPM powerglide car with a stock convertor and 3.08 gears.

Now, that being said, my blown alcohol 427(actually 440" BBC) wasn't turning 10,700 RPM each pass for nothin :wink: :mrgreen:
More apples to apples. What about the 600 HP @ 7100 RPM having a T350 with a 4900 RPM stall and a 4.7066:1 rear end gear in the same 4000 lb car?

Stan

Re: Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100

Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 10:15 am
by Frankshaft
How about this, run a 6000 converter and a 4.56 rear gear in the same car, with 6200 rpm 600 hp, and then the 7100 rpm peak hp engine, then visa versa with a 5000 rpm converter and the same rear gear.

Re: Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100

Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 10:53 am
by In-Tech
None of that was the original question. If the question would have stated same weight car, same frontal area, optimized gearing, etc, it would have been a different question.

Pay attention to what I said about my ~11,000 rpm Big Block. I'm not disagreeing with the rpm, I am disagreeing with the question.

Re: Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100

Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 11:04 am
by Frankshaft
In-Tech wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 10:53 am
None of that was the original question. If the question would have stated same weight car, same frontal area, optimized gearing, etc, it would have been a different question.

Pay attention to what I said about my ~11,000 rpm Big Block. I'm not disagreeing with the rpm, I am disagreeing with the question.
But, if you know anything about the op, you can understand what he is getting at

Re: Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100

Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 11:46 am
by randy331
While this won't answer the OP question specifically, it may be an interesting observation.

I did a 383 ( Pseudo ) and a 355 that both made 525 peak HP. Pseudo made peak HP at 6000 rpm while the 355 made peak HP at 7200 rpm.

Both went in powerglide, Coan converter cars. Pseudo had 4.56 rear end gear and the 355 5.43. Both 30" tall tires.
Weight was 2950 for pseudo and 3000 for the 355.

TQ at peak HP rpm would be 460 LBs for pseudo and 383 LBs for the 355 at peak HP rpm.

Pseudo ran a best
1.368 60'
6.38 @ 105.2 1/8 mile
10.24 @ 127 MPH

The 355 ran a best
1.349 60'
5.37 @ 106 1/8 mile
10.11 @ 130 1/4 mile

In my experience the set in the car favored Pseudo, yet the 355 produced better ET and MPH.

With less TQ at all locations on the track, why is the 355 faster ?

Randy