Don Terrill’s Speed-Talk

joe 90 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 01, 2017 5:24 am Good to hear.
Yes...leaking injectors in diesels.
They do a lot of damage.
1KZ, 1KD. WLT. YD25. ZD30?

Getting back the this post.........
It's about seating the rings but in another block.
So in effect you're starting off with new rings.......using a spare block to machine the new rings.
Then remove them and fit them to the block they're going to be used in.
The new block?
That will be already honed?
SO the rings are machined by the block?
The block isn't machined by the rings?
Or a bit of both?

Joe,

In this process the rings don't wear to any measurable extent over the life of an endurance race motor so this bedding in business does not apply. Also the ring material and bores are not what is used conventionally so those previous bore prepping techniques don't really apply.

DV

kimosabi wrote: ↑Thu Nov 09, 2017 4:57 am Any piston rock to be expected, or am I wrong for thinking that could be an issue for finsish surface of the rings.

The final processing piston will be a special. It will have a round skirt and be a constant diameter with about 0.0002 clearance with the bore. Running temp will be controlled by the extensive oil flow. There will be no piston rock.

DV

David: since you'll be using custom 'pistons', free of most of the constraints of a running engine, will you make them extra-long and cut two or more sets of grooves to speed up the processing time?

MadBill wrote: ↑Thu Nov 09, 2017 3:01 pm David: since you'll be using custom 'pistons', free of most of the constraints of a running engine, will you make them extra-long and cut two or more sets of grooves to speed up the processing time?

Yes, I will do 8 compression rings at once - 4 on two pistons and 4 second rings on 2 other pistons. Block only has 4 4.033 bores the rest are single sizes that I use mostly after 4.03 bores.

DV

David Vizard wrote: ↑Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:01 pm

MadBill wrote: ↑Thu Nov 09, 2017 3:01 pm David: since you'll be using custom 'pistons', free of most of the constraints of a running engine, will you make them extra-long and cut two or more sets of grooves to speed up the processing time?

Yes, I will do 8 compression rings at once - 4 on two pistons and 4 second rings on 2 other pistons. Block only has 4 4.033 bores the rest are single sizes that I use mostly after 4.03 bores.

DV

David, as there is a ceramic coating being deposited on the rings, does this also get deposited on the bores? I take it this processing oil formulation is different to the oil being used in the race engine??

Cubic_Cleveland wrote: ↑Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:07 pm

David Vizard wrote: ↑Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:01 pm

MadBill wrote: ↑Thu Nov 09, 2017 3:01 pm David: since you'll be using custom 'pistons', free of most of the constraints of a running engine, will you make them extra-long and cut two or more sets of grooves to speed up the processing time?

Yes, I will do 8 compression rings at once - 4 on two pistons and 4 second rings on 2 other pistons. Block only has 4 4.033 bores the rest are single sizes that I use mostly after 4.03 bores.

DV

David, as there is a ceramic coating being deposited on the rings, does this also get deposited on the bores? I take it this processing oil formulation is different to the oil being used in the race engine??

Yes different oil.
Ceramic coating builds up on bore as well but past a certain minuscule amount of deposition the build up on the bore stops. A fresh set of
un-processed rings will build the coating to about the same as the bore and then stop. The whole process amounts to less than 0.000015".

DV

David Vizard wrote: ↑Fri Nov 10, 2017 7:23 pm

Cubic_Cleveland wrote: ↑Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:07 pm

David Vizard wrote: ↑Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:01 pm


Yes, I will do 8 compression rings at once - 4 on two pistons and 4 second rings on 2 other pistons. Block only has 4 4.033 bores the rest are single sizes that I use mostly after 4.03 bores.

DV

David, as there is a ceramic coating being deposited on the rings, does this also get deposited on the bores? I take it this processing oil formulation is different to the oil being used in the race engine??

Yes different oil.
Ceramic coating builds up on bore as well but past a certain minuscule amount of deposition the build up on the bore stops. A fresh set of
un-processed rings will build the coating to about the same as the bore and then stop. The whole process amounts to less than 0.000015".

DV

Thanks for the clarification David.

Have not looked into this thread for a while. Interesting reading.

Running fresh rings in a "conditioned" bore has been done for a long time. When I was at F-M in the 1990s they were doing that in the test labs at Sealed Power according to the guys who worked with me. Apparently considered normal process. One guy also told me that some Cup teams and Pro Stock guys were finding minor gains doing the same thing during a refresh, but that those gains diminished as the engine was run over time (should be no real surprise - break in really happens). No reason to question the source of the information - he was (and is) smarter than me and was our primary technical contact for those folks.

I don't view David's concept as a "solution looking for a problem" (one of my favorite sayings). I see it as a complex and expensive solution to a fairly low cost and small problem. The problem or issue certainly exists, and the solution should address it. Depending upon how optimized the rest of the system is, and how important that small increment is to the success of the task, the result will either be "why go through all that work" - or "damn we'd better get after that because he is beating us".

As an aside - I have been using the Mahle 1.0-1.0-2.0 ring package in a good quantity of engines and stroker kits and have had excellent results so far. Zero negative feedback of any sort.

David Vizard wrote: ↑Fri Nov 10, 2017 7:23 pm Ceramic coating builds up on bore as well but past a certain minuscule amount of deposition the build up on the bore stops. A fresh set of
un-processed rings will build the coating to about the same as the bore and then stop. The whole process amounts to less than 0.000015". DV

I'm interested in the process by which this .000015 (15 millionths) is measured.

Thanks!

RAS wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:00 pm David has some free time on his hands. Maybe way to much free time.

The concept of "free time" was invented by people who have no imagination.

There's no such thing as free time, when there's SO MUCH STUFF TO DO.

[/quote]

The concept of "free time" was invented by people who have no imagination.

There's no such thing as free time, when there's SO MUCH STUFF TO DO.
[/quote]
Sort of along the lines of " I can't die till I get caught up and at this rate , I will be immortal"

peejay wrote: ↑Sat Nov 11, 2017 9:52 am

RAS wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:00 pm David has some free time on his hands. Maybe way to much free time.

The concept of "free time" was invented by people who have no imagination.

There's no such thing as free time, when there's SO MUCH STUFF TO DO.

Peejay,

You missed out a word that should have gone in just ahead of 'STUFF' and that word would be- - - EXCITING!
dv