Race Engine Challenge II

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

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CamKing
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Re: Race Engine Challenge II

Post by CamKing » Sat Nov 18, 2017 2:03 pm

Barry_R wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:59 pm
I very much like the catalog oil pan rule because the normal viewer/reader/customer can not relate to a 12" deep square box for a pan.
"Catalog" goes too far. There are plenty of street strip engines out there with custom or modified oil pans. We just need realistic size/depth limits

I like the catalog header rule even though it severely limits my options. It eliminates crazy expensive stuff & engines look "real" - same deal.
Same as the oil pans. Custom headers are common on good street/strip engines.

I like the .904 max lifter diameter because its realistic and simple
100% agree. You can buy aftermarket blocks bored for .904" lifters, and everyone makes .904" roller lifters

Lifters have rollers on the bottom. Flat tappets are an insult to evolution.
Agree. Restricting to flat tappets, would actually increase the development costs, without increasing performance.

I like some kind of net lift rule - I go over .600 on darn near everything - .700 or .750 seems intuitive
95% agree. A gross lift rule would be easier to police. If it ends up being me, checking the lift, I wouldn't have to check it while the engine is still hot.

I like the open spring pressure rule because its at least somewhat limiting and easy to check
I thought about that. But it won't work with the multiple engine platforms, and multiple CID's. It would give a huge advantage to ultra-light valvetrains, and high rocker ratios. IMO, this would move the valvetrains away from what you would be doing for a street/strip engine, and toward a dyno queen.

I liked the older EMC intake rules where the outside of a cast intake had to be unmodified but epoxy was OK inside.
This is something I go back and forth on. I can see the thinking behind either side of this argument

The no welding allowed on heads & manifold rules are good. Completely unenforceable but morally correct.
I can tell you one thing about these rules. You won't see "unenforceable rules". If a rule can't be enforced, don't make it a rule. It only makes it easier for the guy who can spend the money to get around the rule.

Replacement blocks and heads that share OE architecture are an economical reality in today's market
Agree

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Re: Race Engine Challenge II

Post by CamKing » Sat Nov 18, 2017 2:11 pm

randy331 wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 9:51 pm
What's a " standard travel lifter " ?
Rules like that need stated ways of defining " standard travel "
That's why a hydr roller rule doesn't make sense.
It's too hard to regulate, and we'd be spending too much time tearing apart lifters, and arguing about what is "Normal" or Standard".

We'd have to build a test fixture to measure bleed rate. Do we check them cold or hot? Do we check with a common oil, or the oil they're running in the engine?

Do we check the oil pressure to the lifter galley ?

Allowing mechanical roller lifters, is the Keep It Simple Stupid, approach.
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Re: Race Engine Challenge II

Post by swampbuggy » Sat Nov 18, 2017 2:39 pm

Camking------IMO you just flat make a LOT of sense when you make statements. Mark H.

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Re: Race Engine Challenge II

Post by RevTheory » Sat Nov 18, 2017 2:50 pm

swampbuggy wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 2:39 pm
Camking------IMO you just flat make a LOT of sense when you make statements. Mark H.
I agree except for the custom headers.

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Re: Race Engine Challenge II

Post by CamKing » Sat Nov 18, 2017 2:57 pm

swampbuggy wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 2:39 pm
Camking------IMO you just flat make a LOT of sense when you make statements. Mark H.
When you've spent the last 30+ years, dissecting rule books. You get a good idea of what rules work, and what rules just add cost.
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Re: Race Engine Challenge II

Post by CamKing » Sat Nov 18, 2017 3:03 pm

RevTheory wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 2:50 pm
swampbuggy wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 2:39 pm
Camking------IMO you just flat make a LOT of sense when you make statements. Mark H.
I agree except for the custom headers.
How many top "street/Strip" professional engine builders only use off-the-shelf headers?
Heck, I ran custom headers on my VW in High School(had to clear the dry-sump pump). :lol:
I think there needs to be realistic limits(something that would actually fit in a car), but custom headers are a common item on a street/strip car.
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Re: Race Engine Challenge II

Post by Joe-71 » Sat Nov 18, 2017 3:20 pm

I believe the term I used originally was "Chassis style headers". If we are to build a street/strip style engine, then the headers should be made to fit a street/strip style chassis, not just work on a dyno. JMO, but custom headers that fit a chassis should be understood to mean chassis style for a particular vehicle that will be used on the street or strip. Joe-71

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Re: Race Engine Challenge II

Post by GARY C » Sat Nov 18, 2017 3:38 pm

CamKing wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 3:03 pm
RevTheory wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 2:50 pm
swampbuggy wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 2:39 pm
Camking------IMO you just flat make a LOT of sense when you make statements. Mark H.
I agree except for the custom headers.
How many top "street/Strip" professional engine builders only use off-the-shelf headers?
Heck, I ran custom headers on my VW in High School(had to clear the dry-sump pump). :lol:
I think there needs to be realistic limits(something that would actually fit in a car), but custom headers are a common item on a street/strip car.
I sell fuel to a lot of racers from Mud Trucks, Dirt Track and Drag Race and I only see custom headers on the upper level but with good OTB headers ranging from $650.00 to $1000.00 now days I think if you kept the header rule to a mild steel (no stainless) then custom header cost would not add a big dollar amount to the headers and could open up ideas to the market on header design, not to mention the adventurous builder could buy a mild steel header kit and build his own and might save a few dollars.
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Re: Race Engine Challenge II

Post by CamKing » Sat Nov 18, 2017 3:42 pm

Joe-71 wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 3:20 pm
I believe the term I used originally was "Chassis style headers". If we are to build a street/strip style engine, then the headers should be made to fit a street/strip style chassis, not just work on a dyno. JMO, but custom headers that fit a chassis should be understood to mean chassis style for a particular vehicle that will be used on the street or strip. Joe-71
That's my line of thought.
Custom is fine, but if someone shows up with a set of headers, that would require you to cut a hole in the firewall and remove the passenger seat to install them, that wouldn't be within the spirit of the competition.
Maybe have the engine builders submit a rough sketch of the headers, before they have them built, to make sure they're something that would conceivably fit on a street/strip car ?
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Re: Race Engine Challenge II

Post by CamKing » Sat Nov 18, 2017 3:50 pm

GARY C wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 3:38 pm
I think if you kept the header rule to a mild steel (no stainless) then custom header cost would not add a big dollar amount to the headers and could open up ideas to the market on header design, not to mention the adventurous builder could buy a mild steel header kit and build his own and might save a few dollars.
Would there be any advantage to running expensive stainless, over mild steel, for dyno testing?
If not, then let the builder decide.
If the only advantage to stainless, is that it'll last longer, then let the engine builder decide if it's worth the extra money. Maybe he will have an easier time selingl the stainless exhaust to a customer. Maybe he can get a company like Burns Stainless to sponsor his project.
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Re: Race Engine Challenge II

Post by RevTheory » Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:02 pm

I view custom headers about like I view being able to weld in runner extensions and use epoxy: I can see both sides of the argument. It seems like a hell of an expense for shops that can build a seriously kick ass engine but aren't equipped to do it (custom headers) in house or farm out a $2,000+ dollar set of headers that need to look like they fit in some arbitrary chassis just to be able to compete.

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Re: Race Engine Challenge II

Post by Rick360 » Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:14 pm

One problem with header rules is the headers have to fit the dyno, so some headers that fit a chassis won't fit some dynos.

Rick

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Re: Race Engine Challenge II

Post by CamKing » Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:16 pm

RevTheory wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:02 pm
I view custom headers about like I view being able to weld in runner extensions and use epoxy: I can see both sides of the argument. It seems like a hell of an expense for shops that can build a seriously kick ass engine but aren't equipped to do it (custom headers) in house or farm out a $2,000+ dollar set of headers that need to look like they fit in some arbitrary chassis just to be able to compete.
I agree, but if you outlawed custom headers, wouldn't that give a huge advantage to the engine platforms that have a better selection of off-the shelf headers ?
How many off-the-shelf headers are available for BD1010 cyl heads?
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Re: Race Engine Challenge II

Post by CamKing » Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:18 pm

Rick360 wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:14 pm
One problem with header rules is the headers have to fit the dyno, so some headers that fit a chassis won't fit some dynos.

Rick
That's where the engine builder submitting a rough sketch of the headers would help. Maybe use the center of the flywheel as the reference point for all measurements.
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Re: Race Engine Challenge II

Post by RevTheory » Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:19 pm

I hear ya, Mike, and I don't have a solution :-k

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