180, 200+cc heads???

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88bluestar
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Re: 180, 200+cc heads???

Post by 88bluestar » Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:03 am

dirtracr5 wrote:
Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:33 pm
Im my experience the 180 head would be perfect. We build a spec 360 10.5 to 1 engine on gas with a 4bbl and make about 450hp 460tq. We turn 7400 rpm in a 3000lb stockcar. We use a spec eq head thats only around a 170cc runner. I have tried a 200 runner head and they are very lazy on the bottom end and come on like a bottle rocket about 1/2 way down the straightaway.

I agree the 830cfm carb is WAY to big.
What cfm 4 bbl would you suggest? Differences between this larger carb, and a smaller one?

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Re: 180, 200+cc heads???

Post by lefty o » Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:21 am

engine will use somewhere between 650-700cfm, id think a good 750 would be close.

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Re: 180, 200+cc heads???

Post by 88bluestar » Tue Oct 31, 2017 5:12 pm

Dry flow is 866 cfm @20.5 water column (SAE test pressure)
Wet flow is 796cfm @12.5:1 AFR according to my carb builder

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Re: 180, 200+cc heads???

Post by dirtracr5 » Tue Oct 31, 2017 5:38 pm

88bluestar wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:03 am
dirtracr5 wrote:
Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:33 pm
Im my experience the 180 head would be perfect. We build a spec 360 10.5 to 1 engine on gas with a 4bbl and make about 450hp 460tq. We turn 7400 rpm in a 3000lb stockcar. We use a spec eq head thats only around a 170cc runner. I have tried a 200 runner head and they are very lazy on the bottom end and come on like a bottle rocket about 1/2 way down the straightaway.

I agree the 830cfm carb is WAY to big.
What cfm 4 bbl would you suggest? Differences between this larger carb, and a smaller one?
I use a 650 which has been modified. Its right between a 650 and 750. 650 would be best for shorter tracks. 1/2 miles I'd go with a 750.

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Re: 180, 200+cc heads???

Post by Keith Morganstein » Wed Nov 01, 2017 7:35 pm

I think we've pm'd some on this before. First choice is the small bowtie vortec. Second is the EQ CH350C vortec with a bit of work. A race prepped 650 carb is ideal.

No way would I ditch the Jones Cam. His numbers don't compare to a comp cams catalog cam. Usually he specs to the combo with the heads and flow determined. There are some haters on here, but with his help, we've got around the track faster and won a bunch.

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Re: 180, 200+cc heads???

Post by sanfordandson » Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:34 pm

Keith Morganstein wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 7:35 pm

No way would I ditch the Jones Cam. His numbers don't compare to a comp cams catalog cam. Usually he specs to the combo with the heads and flow determined. There are some haters on here, but with his help, we've got around the track faster and won a bunch.
I agree with everything you said except for the cam. I dont think Mike would spec this cam for this combo. He's specd 2bbl cams for me with more duration than the cam the OP has in mind.

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Re: 180, 200+cc heads???

Post by cspeier » Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:44 pm

I have a builder using a 200cc #451 Vortec heads. 4.040/3.500, 11-1, .660 lift, legal 4412 2-barrel

engines make 440 on chassis dyno and 510 flywheel.

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Re: 180, 200+cc heads???

Post by racear2865 » Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:36 pm

cspeier wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:44 pm
I have a builder using a 200cc #451 Vortec heads. 4.040/3.500, 11-1, .660 lift, legal 4412 2-barrel

engines make 440 on chassis dyno and 510 flywheel.
Chad
That is humping for 4412. Impressive.
reed

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Re: 180, 200+cc heads???

Post by Keith Morganstein » Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:16 pm

racear2865 wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:36 pm
cspeier wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:44 pm
I have a builder using a 200cc #451 Vortec heads. 4.040/3.500, 11-1, .660 lift, legal 4412 2-barrel

engines make 440 on chassis dyno and 510 flywheel.
Chad
That is humping for 4412. Impressive.
reed


510 flywheel is with the 4412 is very good.


I was building this combo to compete with modded 4bbl 604
Stock block SBC. 4.030 x 3.50, lightweight rotating assy, 185cc bowtie vortec (with a Dennis spec valve job and blend) (no porting) Jones mech roller, mowton intake and a good race 4412. Made 491HP @7200 RPM

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Re: 180, 200+cc heads???

Post by racear2865 » Thu Nov 02, 2017 12:52 pm

Keith Morganstein wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:16 pm
racear2865 wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:36 pm
cspeier wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:44 pm
I have a builder using a 200cc #451 Vortec heads. 4.040/3.500, 11-1, .660 lift, legal 4412 2-barrel

engines make 440 on chassis dyno and 510 flywheel.
Chad
That is humping for 4412. Impressive.
reed


510 flywheel is with the 4412 is very good.


I was building this combo to compete with modded 4bbl 604
Stock block SBC. 4.030 x 3.50, lightweight rotating assy, 185cc bowtie vortec (with a Dennis spec valve job and blend) (no porting) Jones mech roller, mowton intake and a good race 4412. Made 491HP @7200 RPM



As I said this is humping my friend. I would sure love to discuss it further if you would. I hat crates as just too many are cheating up on them and tracks dont care so I want to build one that competes with them.
reed

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Re: 180, 200+cc heads???

Post by dirtracr5 » Thu Nov 02, 2017 1:11 pm

Keith Morganstein wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:16 pm
racear2865 wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:36 pm
cspeier wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:44 pm
I have a builder using a 200cc #451 Vortec heads. 4.040/3.500, 11-1, .660 lift, legal 4412 2-barrel

engines make 440 on chassis dyno and 510 flywheel.
510 flywheel is with the 4412 is very good.


I was building this combo to compete with modded 4bbl 604
Stock block SBC. 4.030 x 3.50, lightweight rotating assy, 185cc bowtie vortec (with a Dennis spec valve job and blend) (no porting) Jones mech roller, mowton intake and a good race 4412. Made 491HP @7200 RPM
Your numbers sound spot on Keith. We build a similar combo but non roller and eq spec head and we make about 450hp.

510 on a 360 2bbl sounds like a fish tale or "loose" dyno to me.

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Re: 180, 200+cc heads???

Post by cspeier » Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:18 pm


Your numbers sound spot on Keith. We build a similar combo but non roller and eq spec head and we make about 450hp.

510 on a 360 2bbl sounds like a fish tale or "loose" dyno to me.
So let me get this straight. No porting, 185cc headed 4412 makes 491@7200 and it's spot on..

I post up a ported 200cc headed 4412 that makes 510hp and it's a fish tale or loose dyno..

GOT IT!

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Re: 180, 200+cc heads???

Post by dirtracr5 » Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:40 pm

cspeier wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:18 pm

Your numbers sound spot on Keith. We build a similar combo but non roller and eq spec head and we make about 450hp.

510 on a 360 2bbl sounds like a fish tale or "loose" dyno to me.
So let me get this straight. No porting, 185cc headed 4412 makes 491@7200 and it's spot on..

I post up a ported 200cc headed 4412 that makes 510hp and it's a fish tale or loose dyno..

GOT IT!
Correct. Depending on the parts in your builders motor it should be similar to Keith's. I assume your builders motor had a good single plane intake and roller cam?

Also which vortec head was used? I have not seen a #415 200cc vortec head. I have used stock vortecs, large and small port bowties and the eq vortec heads.

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Re: 180, 200+cc heads???

Post by cspeier » Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:50 pm

Sorry it was a #25534351, 185cc small Vortec.

And he has built several...

I'm stumped that a person doesn't think a 19hp gain is possible with a properly done cylinder head.

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Re: 180, 200+cc heads???

Post by dirtracr5 » Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:59 pm

cspeier wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:50 pm
Sorry it was a #25534351, 185cc small Vortec.

And he has built several...

I'm stumped that a person doesn't think a 19hp gain is possible with a properly done cylinder head.
Do you know if they were done with a roller cam and what intake was used?

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