Looking for some suggestions for #8 454 noise

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Machtuck
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Re: Looking for some suggestions for #8 454 noise

Post by Machtuck » Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:26 pm

Newold1 wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 2:39 pm
I second the comment on those pistons. If you're gonna be racing a big block up to the 7000rpm + ranges I would never recommend a hyper-eutectic piston for that BBC!
Shifting at 7,000 is not commonplace on this engine. It was purely by accident. However, i will say, the thing pulled hard all the way to it.

Thanks again.

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Re: Looking for some suggestions for #8 454 noise

Post by rustbucket79 » Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:35 pm

Compression test not withstanding, pull the cover and check the valve adjustment on that bank. I've had a hydraulic roller lifter collapse and not return. (Plunger)

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Re: Looking for some suggestions for #8 454 noise

Post by Machtuck » Fri Nov 03, 2017 9:42 pm

Ok. I will do that. I will let you all know what i come up with and I appreciate the advice.

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Re: Looking for some suggestions for #8 454 noise

Post by vortecpro » Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:48 pm

Machtuck wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:40 pm
I may have screwed a good engine. Before i tear into this thing, i thought i may ask the experts.
Here it is:

.030 454
Sealed power hypers with small dome ( can’t remember size)
9.6 to 1 - .050 squish
Ported 781’s
Lunati hyd roller 60212 231/239. .600/.600 110 with matching springs,retainers,locks.
I have 135lb on the seat and 360lb open
Lifters are howards max effort (not morels but not junk)
Trick pro pushrods
Comp ultra pro rockers
Installed straight up
Cast crank and factory rods/ all balanced
800 double pumper on eddy perf rpm
Msd street fire dizzy



Here’s what occurred:

I reset the timing at 18 initial but didn’t check total as i had always thought this msd had 18 degrees mechanical advance- Wrong! It has 22. Stupid me. Should had checked the total.
20 mph launch in first and i accidentally let it go to 7,000 before i shifted. Right about the shift, i heard what sounded like float. Took it around block and another 20 mph launch in first. Went to 6,000 and it broke up again before i shifted. Took it home and heard a noticeable tapping sound from pass rear. Not crankcase but more like lifter. Pulled pass side cover. Rockers, retainers locks, pushrods and springs all look good. Yanked rockers and set zero lash on that side. Looked to be full movement on all valves. Still tapping but definitely coming from #8. Checked compression on pass side. All within 10 percent of 187psi. Plugs look normal, no black flecks. Oil looks great. I brought the timing back to 34 degrees total. Good oil press. At idle it is a noticeable tapping but revs fine and seems to subside when revved. I have not put it under load since i readjusted valves. Other than the tapping, the engine still runs and idles fine.

1) i’m wondering if i was detonating up top during the shift instead of valve float and did some rod/ piston pin damage

2). The break up did not sound like a can full of marbles, (detonation) more like low fuel press and car fell on face.- valve float i suspect.

3) its 4100# with me, 3000 converter, th400/ 3:42 12 bolt. 1 3/4 header with 2.5” exhaust flowmaster super 40’s

The only thing that i changed was advancing the timing about 2 degrees more from what it was and i unplugged vacuum advance. And over revved.

Looking for some suggestions on what i might check before i yank intake.

Sure appreciate any advice
I can tell you this: I have tested that POS cam extensively. This is what I found on my BBC, from 5900 RPM to 6100 RPM I lost 70 HP, many spring combinations and lifter sets were tried, YOU WILL NEVER MAKE THAT POS WORK. I went back after days of testing to my tried and true cam, peak HP was @ 6500 RPM. Lunati is completely out of line with that junk, never Lunati again. BTW with that spring pressure your lucky you didn't drop a valve.
Racing a NA NHRA stocker should be mandatory before any posting.

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Re: Looking for some suggestions for #8 454 noise

Post by cjperformance » Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:42 pm

vortecpro wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:48 pm
Machtuck wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:40 pm
I may have screwed a good engine. Before i tear into this thing, i thought i may ask the experts.
Here it is:

.030 454
Sealed power hypers with small dome ( can’t remember size)
9.6 to 1 - .050 squish
Ported 781’s
Lunati hyd roller 60212 231/239. .600/.600 110 with matching springs,retainers,locks.
I have 135lb on the seat and 360lb open
Lifters are howards max effort (not morels but not junk)
Trick pro pushrods
Comp ultra pro rockers
Installed straight up
Cast crank and factory rods/ all balanced
800 double pumper on eddy perf rpm
Msd street fire dizzy



Here’s what occurred:

I reset the timing at 18 initial but didn’t check total as i had always thought this msd had 18 degrees mechanical advance- Wrong! It has 22. Stupid me. Should had checked the total.
20 mph launch in first and i accidentally let it go to 7,000 before i shifted. Right about the shift, i heard what sounded like float. Took it around block and another 20 mph launch in first. Went to 6,000 and it broke up again before i shifted. Took it home and heard a noticeable tapping sound from pass rear. Not crankcase but more like lifter. Pulled pass side cover. Rockers, retainers locks, pushrods and springs all look good. Yanked rockers and set zero lash on that side. Looked to be full movement on all valves. Still tapping but definitely coming from #8. Checked compression on pass side. All within 10 percent of 187psi. Plugs look normal, no black flecks. Oil looks great. I brought the timing back to 34 degrees total. Good oil press. At idle it is a noticeable tapping but revs fine and seems to subside when revved. I have not put it under load since i readjusted valves. Other than the tapping, the engine still runs and idles fine.

1) i’m wondering if i was detonating up top during the shift instead of valve float and did some rod/ piston pin damage

2). The break up did not sound like a can full of marbles, (detonation) more like low fuel press and car fell on face.- valve float i suspect.

3) its 4100# with me, 3000 converter, th400/ 3:42 12 bolt. 1 3/4 header with 2.5” exhaust flowmaster super 40’s

The only thing that i changed was advancing the timing about 2 degrees more from what it was and i unplugged vacuum advance. And over revved.

Looking for some suggestions on what i might check before i yank intake.

Sure appreciate any advice
I can tell you this: I have tested that POS cam extensively. This is what I found on my BBC, from 5900 RPM to 6100 RPM I lost 70 HP, many spring combinations and lifter sets were tried, YOU WILL NEVER MAKE THAT POS WORK. I went back after days of testing to my tried and true cam, peak HP was @ 6500 RPM. Lunati is completely out of line with that junk, never Lunati again. BTW with that spring pressure your lucky you didn't drop a valve.
What was the spec difference from the Lunati to your replacement cam?
Cheers
Craig.

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Re: Looking for some suggestions for #8 454 noise

Post by vortecpro » Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:19 pm

Craig

It was
238/248/109/578/608
Racing a NA NHRA stocker should be mandatory before any posting.

cjperformance
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Re: Looking for some suggestions for #8 454 noise

Post by cjperformance » Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:57 pm

vortecpro wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:19 pm
Craig

It was
238/248/109/578/608
Of course theres more in the spec to consider but that .050" and on 109 is definetly going to make some more steam up top and hit the tq harder to boot.
Craig.

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Re: Looking for some suggestions for #8 454 noise

Post by Machtuck » Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:51 am

Some resolution and outcome. I pulled #6and #8 pushrods and rockers and inspected carefully. I looked down at associated lifters- all looked good. Re-did lash on those cylinders and the noise has gone away. I’m guessing some junk in one of the lifters. Thanks for the replies guys.

mag2555
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Re: Looking for some suggestions for #8 454 noise

Post by mag2555 » Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:58 am

That's a easy fix, count your blessings on that one, but keep in mind the dead on tune needed for those Pistons to live with power levels above 450 HP and repeated rpms above 6000.

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Re: Looking for some suggestions for #8 454 noise

Post by rfoll » Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:25 am

I've used several sets of the Speed Pro hypers. They will work fine for many years until you do something stupid. They don't like detonation and have a very short life in nitrous.
So much to do, so little time...

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Re: Looking for some suggestions for #8 454 noise

Post by Machtuck » Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:45 am

Also, I looked at the recommended part number 73121 valve springs. They are 142psi at 1.94 installed with a rate of 377. Lift is .600. I installed all at 1.9. This should yield a bit better than 142 on the seat and about 375 open. So the calcs in my initial post are erroneous.
Vortecpro- good info. This is a driver and it pulls good (sounds good too). If i ever track it again, I’ll go mech flat/ roller. Thanks gain.

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Re: Looking for some suggestions for #8 454 noise

Post by Machtuck » Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:54 am

I didn’t think that i would be much over 450hp. 😂

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Re: Looking for some suggestions for #8 454 noise

Post by Bradley67 » Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:18 pm

Machtuck wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:51 am
Some resolution and outcome. I pulled #6and #8 pushrods and rockers and inspected carefully. I looked down at associated lifters- all looked good. Re-did lash on those cylinders and the noise has gone away. I’m guessing some junk in one of the lifters. Thanks for the replies guys.
Did you re-check the spring pressures at seat and nose hieghts? Worse possible scenario for spring failure/ loss of pressure is floating them. How did the lock grooves on the valves and locks themselves look? Any rounding of the lock grooves? Lock to retainer interface still smooth and dull?
Be vigilant in your inspection process. Valve float at 7,000 rpm in a combo capable of maybe 5,800 is a serious concern. Depending on the initial spring quality I would consider replacing them all if you plan on revving this engine to 6,000 rpm frequently. The time and cost will be a lot less than a dropped valve.

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Re: Looking for some suggestions for #8 454 noise

Post by rocketracer380 » Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:51 am

Built a 454 years ago mild 450 hp with a hyd cam ran mint but had a funny whirring rumbling type noise machine shop chalked it up to a noisy cam I changed the lifters still made same noise good oil pressure ran strong just noisy, possibly the Barry grant mechanical fuel pump ,called it a day. Ran it for about 3 years went 12.5's @ 4200# @107 .also had a similar build that misfired on me twice horribly then mysteriously went away then the 3rd time on a burnout it dropped a valve machinest said it was a ptv issues which I didn't buy cause it only happened on one cylinder usually you have ptv it would be all the intakes or exhaust this was just the one and it was a mild 10:1 comp small cam .544" cam I think it was a tight valve guide that hung up the valve at the wrong time and the 3rd time it just wacked it and she let go was bronse guide not cast iron good luck figuring it out

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