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Looking for some suggestions for #8 454 noise
Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:40 pm
by Machtuck
I may have screwed a good engine. Before i tear into this thing, i thought i may ask the experts.
Here it is:
.030 454
Sealed power hypers with small dome ( can’t remember size)
9.6 to 1 - .050 squish
Ported 781’s
Lunati hyd roller 60212 231/239. .600/.600 110 with matching springs,retainers,locks.
I have 135lb on the seat and 360lb open
Lifters are howards max effort (not morels but not junk)
Trick pro pushrods
Comp ultra pro rockers
Installed straight up
Cast crank and factory rods/ all balanced
800 double pumper on eddy perf rpm
Msd street fire dizzy
Here’s what occurred:
I reset the timing at 18 initial but didn’t check total as i had always thought this msd had 18 degrees mechanical advance- Wrong! It has 22. Stupid me. Should had checked the total.
20 mph launch in first and i accidentally let it go to 7,000 before i shifted. Right about the shift, i heard what sounded like float. Took it around block and another 20 mph launch in first. Went to 6,000 and it broke up again before i shifted. Took it home and heard a noticeable tapping sound from pass rear. Not crankcase but more like lifter. Pulled pass side cover. Rockers, retainers locks, pushrods and springs all look good. Yanked rockers and set zero lash on that side. Looked to be full movement on all valves. Still tapping but definitely coming from #8. Checked compression on pass side. All within 10 percent of 187psi. Plugs look normal, no black flecks. Oil looks great. I brought the timing back to 34 degrees total. Good oil press. At idle it is a noticeable tapping but revs fine and seems to subside when revved. I have not put it under load since i readjusted valves. Other than the tapping, the engine still runs and idles fine.
1) i’m wondering if i was detonating up top during the shift instead of valve float and did some rod/ piston pin damage
2). The break up did not sound like a can full of marbles, (detonation) more like low fuel press and car fell on face.- valve float i suspect.
3) its 4100# with me, 3000 converter, th400/ 3:42 12 bolt. 1 3/4 header with 2.5” exhaust flowmaster super 40’s
The only thing that i changed was advancing the timing about 2 degrees more from what it was and i unplugged vacuum advance. And over revved.
Looking for some suggestions on what i might check before i yank intake.
Sure appreciate any advice
Re: Looking for some suggestions for #8 454 noise
Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:47 pm
by BigBlocksOnTop2
Hydraulic lifters....what weight oil. A heavier weight oil may fix your problem. Lifter has probably collapsed will be my answer.
Re: Looking for some suggestions for #8 454 noise
Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:52 pm
by Machtuck
Valvoline Vr50. I still run zinc even though it’s a roller. It is a cast core though. Also, i had said zero lash. I meant zero lash plus half a turn. I’ll change the oil. Should i pull #8 lifters?
Thanks for the reply
Re: Looking for some suggestions for #8 454 noise
Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 5:10 pm
by GOSFAST
Machtuck wrote: ↑Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:40 pm
I may have screwed a good engine. Before i tear into this thing, i thought i may ask the experts.
Here it is:
.030 454
Sealed power hypers with small dome ( can’t remember size)
9.6 to 1 - .050 squish
Ported 781’s
Lunati hyd roller 60212 231/239. .600/.600 110 with matching springs,retainers,locks.
I have 135lb on the seat and 360lb open
Lifters are howards max effort (not morels but not junk)
Trick pro pushrods
Comp ultra pro rockers
Installed straight up
Cast crank and factory rods/ all balanced
800 double pumper on eddy perf rpm
Msd street fire dizzy
Here’s what occurred:
I reset the timing at 18 initial but didn’t check total as i had always thought this msd had 18 degrees mechanical advance- Wrong! It has 22. Stupid me. Should had checked the total.
20 mph launch in first and i accidentally let it go to 7,000 before i shifted. Right about the shift, i heard what sounded like float. Took it around block and another 20 mph launch in first. Went to 6,000 and it broke up again before i shifted. Took it home and heard a noticeable tapping sound from pass rear. Not crankcase but more like lifter. Pulled pass side cover. Rockers, retainers locks, pushrods and springs all look good. Yanked rockers and set zero lash on that side. Looked to be full movement on all valves. Still tapping but definitely coming from #8. Checked compression on pass side. All within 10 percent of 187psi. Plugs look normal, no black flecks. Oil looks great. I brought the timing back to 34 degrees total. Good oil press. At idle it is a noticeable tapping but revs fine and seems to subside when revved. I have not put it under load since i readjusted valves. Other than the tapping, the engine still runs and idles fine.
1) i’m wondering if i was detonating up top during the shift instead of valve float and did some rod/ piston pin damage
2). The break up did not sound like a can full of marbles, (detonation) more like low fuel press and car fell on face.- valve float i suspect.
3) its 4100# with me, 3000 converter, th400/ 3:42 12 bolt. 1 3/4 header with 2.5” exhaust flowmaster super 40’s
The only thing that i changed was advancing the timing about 2 degrees more from what it was and i unplugged vacuum advance. And over revved.
Looking for some suggestions on what i might check before i yank intake.
Sure appreciate any advice
You don't have near enough spring pressure for any roller setup??
What is the specific spring part number? and maybe get rid of any chrome-moly retainers if they are in the program??
Thanks, Gary in N.Y.
P.S. The spring pressure you show is more indicative of a SBC, and even then it's bit low! We like to see the BBC's at 160#/170# closed and a 400# rate on retro-hyd roller.
Re: Looking for some suggestions for #8 454 noise
Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 5:26 pm
by cgarb
Could the possibility of a bent valve be there? I would think that would show on the compression check though. I don't think one rip with a little too much timing could have hurt it that much. Probably the over rev with not enough spring did more than anything.
Re: Looking for some suggestions for #8 454 noise
Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 7:08 pm
by DCal
To check the possibility of piston damage you can pull number 8 plug wire and rev it to around 3000 rpm or whatever seems like a load on the motor. If it doesn't clack that is a good indication of trouble in that cylinder. I'd try number 6 cyl as well.
Re: Looking for some suggestions for #8 454 noise
Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:00 pm
by Machtuck
The springs are 72121-1 springs that are recommended for that cam.
1.54 od
Seat load is 142@ 1.940 ( i am at 1.9 installed)
Open load is 402@ 1.250
Rate is 377
Coil bind 1.089.
Should be plenty of pressure for this cam shouldnt it Gary?
Will try to pull wire and rev. Thanks for the replies
Re: Looking for some suggestions for #8 454 noise
Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:59 pm
by prairiehotrodder
i've broken comp gold rocker arms on my 540 BBC. Its not easily noticeable. Broken right through the steel fulcrum where the stud sticks through. They keep working kinda. I broke 3 of them on different occasions. Never really did figure out why.
Brian
Re: Looking for some suggestions for #8 454 noise
Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:59 pm
by Baprace
If it was me I would pull the pan and check the rod bearing first and if it looks good then keep right on working and look for a cracked piston skirt. The noise you are hearing may be the piston hitting the head because the rod bearing is no longer controlling the piston to head distance.
Re: Looking for some suggestions for #8 454 noise
Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 3:23 am
by Geoff2
Don't think he has bent valves, compression test he did shows no more than 10% variation between cyls.
Re: Looking for some suggestions for #8 454 noise
Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:52 am
by mag2555
Those type Pistons do not have a good history in many motors!
You may have floated the valves enoght to make contact in that cylinder YET not bent a valve!
I would do as posted first and pull the wire on that plug and see if the tapping stops, if not I would then pull the Intake to chech the needle bearings on those lifters.
Re: Looking for some suggestions for #8 454 noise
Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:54 am
by Machtuck
ok I appreciate the feedback all. Hoping its not a piston. I have cracked pistons before but those engines did not run nearly as well as this one afterwards.
Re: Looking for some suggestions for #8 454 noise
Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:38 pm
by rp930
Machtuck wrote: ↑Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:52 pm
Valvoline Vr50. I still run zinc even though it’s a roller. It is a cast core though. Also, i had said zero lash. I meant zero lash plus half a turn. I’ll change the oil. Should i pull #8 lifters?
Thanks for the reply
50 weight? Why?
Re: Looking for some suggestions for #8 454 noise
Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 2:39 pm
by Newold1
I second the comment on those pistons. If you're gonna be racing a big block up to the 7000rpm + ranges I would never recommend a hyper-eutectic piston for that BBC!
Re: Looking for some suggestions for #8 454 noise
Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:24 pm
by Machtuck
50 weight? Why?
[/quote]
Because I didn’t order the oil i should had put in (brad penn 10w) and the parts stores near me only carry the vr in 50w.