IR lengths and plenum sizing for carbs

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Re: IR lengths and plenum sizing for carbs

Post by ptuomov »

modok wrote: Yes, I agree.
sorry I didn't read it correctly the first time. I'm glad you GET that. Would you expect changing the IC point to make any real difference in this condition? NOPE :D
Doesn't really make a difference, just so happens the valve is closing also. Such strong wording I thought it had some greater agenda.
Even though the IVC event doesn’t cause the wave in any sense, in my opinion it is not irrelevant to the calculations. By my logic, the piston moving up can’t further increase the intake port pressure after the intake valve is closed. Therefore, we can use the IVC as an approximate point timing the wave.

I think that the IVC-IVO tuning is one of the rare situations in which acoustic wave formulas are useful in understanding how engines work. Both one end closed pipe formulas and Helmholtz resonator formulas, depending on the intake configuration.
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Re: IR lengths and plenum sizing for carbs

Post by user-23911 »

ptuomov wrote: Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:02 pm

Even though the IVC event doesn’t cause the wave in any sense, in my opinion it is not irrelevant to the calculations. By my logic, the piston moving up can’t further increase the intake port pressure after the intake valve is closed. Therefore, we can use the IVC as an approximate point timing the wave.

I think that the IVC-IVO tuning is one of the rare situations in which acoustic wave formulas are useful in understanding how engines work. Both one end closed pipe formulas and Helmholtz resonator formulas, depending on the intake configuration.

So you've got no idea?
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Re: IR lengths and plenum sizing for carbs

Post by ptuomov »

joe 90 wrote: Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:55 pm
ptuomov wrote: Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:02 pm

Even though the IVC event doesn’t cause the wave in any sense, in my opinion it is not irrelevant to the calculations. By my logic, the piston moving up can’t further increase the intake port pressure after the intake valve is closed. Therefore, we can use the IVC as an approximate point timing the wave.

I think that the IVC-IVO tuning is one of the rare situations in which acoustic wave formulas are useful in understanding how engines work. Both one end closed pipe formulas and Helmholtz resonator formulas, depending on the intake configuration.
So you've got no idea?
What lead you to that conclusion and statement?
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Re: IR lengths and plenum sizing for carbs

Post by modok »

now that I understand his view, I can debate on Joe's behalf. :P
No offense man, but lemme give it a try, lets see.

One must remember that while we are looking at a pressure trace, there is also velocity. Pressure converts to velocity, which converts to pressure, back and forth, and that's basically what it's doing when it is resonating.
When the pressure is crossing it's mid point that's probably when the velocity is near it's peak, inward or outward depending on which way it's going.

You could say that what is driving the cycle is the piston going down, because this results in FLOW, and stopping the flow is what generates the pressure spike and resonance that follow.

A third view is, that a period positive flow should be TIMED to the piston going down, and this DOES happen regularly every 720 degrees.

For the mild mannered carbureted IR system this won't be the best approach, because like I said earlier the flow will be peaked for some time during the middle if the induction stroke, and this period of time will increase with rpms, making counting from IVC to TDC the more practical target. The target is to get positive pressure at TDC, not necessarily to time the positive flow to the piston going down. IC is used instead of BDC because we are generally taking about the top end of the rpm range, and the pressure spike WILL be at the IC point, because we are in the top of the RPM range.

If the intake pipe is quite large so flow does not peak and "reset" the timing every stroke, then you may want to time it so that the positive flow will time to the piston moving down. In which case, will want to count 720 degrees. And....actually in that case it won't matter what you count from, because whatever you choose will happen regularly at 720 degrees
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Re: IR lengths and plenum sizing for carbs

Post by modok »

See, see, that's a different kind of tuned intake. It's a singing pipe that also feeds a port, it sings and flows at the same time.
To let the pipe KEEP resonating all the time it has to be bigger, to accommodate the flow of the engine as well as the flow of it's own resonance.
The interference will be destructive in the OFF regions, which will damp the resonance, and constructive in the tuned regions. Ever see an intake system with a big old STEP in it? Big runner on a small port? Now you know what they were UP to.

So, that's....at least a half dozen different schemes to make a tuned intake, and most real ones are a combination of several.
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Re: IR lengths and plenum sizing for carbs

Post by steve316 »

Glen that is the common sense and that is uncommon. =D>
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Re: IR lengths and plenum sizing for carbs

Post by hoffman900 »

Something to chew on.

This is a combination I have done a ton of simulation work in EngMod4T. It's run on 250rpm steps. This is the % difference in horsepower with changing lengths, as compared to 13" being the baseline (slope = 0). This application has 61* overlap @ .050".

Image

I did the same with BMEP and added some trendlines:
Image

Obviously they mirror each other.
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Re: IR lengths and plenum sizing for carbs

Post by MadBill »

Most informative graphs! Looks like some added data points below 12" and between 12" & 13" might be illuminating... :-k
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Re: IR lengths and plenum sizing for carbs

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MadBill wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:03 pm Most informative graphs! Looks like some added data points below 12" and between 12" & 13" might be illuminating... :-k
Running right now... :wink:

Also, graphs like this should be SOP as they can tell you a lot.
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Re: IR lengths and plenum sizing for carbs

Post by hoffman900 »

MadBill,

Here you go. I took the trendlines out as it's just too much.
Image

Raw data above smoothed to a 6th order Polynomial trendline:
Image


(note: right click and hit "open image in new tab" to see it expanded).

It's interesting to see where they diverge and converge. I struggle the most with filling in that 3500-5500rpm range. I can gain there, but it kills the top end and vice-versa. I can fix it with cam timing, but none are available for this engine with what I need, and being a sliding rocker type, the lobe will have to be a proprietary to this particular engine.

Such is the life with a single cylinder :?
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Re: IR lengths and plenum sizing for carbs

Post by MadBill »

From data like this, it's easy to see the allure of 'trombone" runners! :)
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Re: IR lengths and plenum sizing for carbs

Post by BenE64 »

What effect does doubling the length to 26in do as was suggested for my application?
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Re: IR lengths and plenum sizing for carbs

Post by BenE64 »

MadBill wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:56 pm From data like this, it's easy to see the allure of 'trombone" runners! :)
Or if this is where those yoshimira style stacks make a difference?
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Re: IR lengths and plenum sizing for carbs

Post by modok »

Very good illustration of all things discussed.
Port energy is real? :lol:

and, also seems to following my example earlier, that being, if 12 is good, try 16 :D
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Re: IR lengths and plenum sizing for carbs

Post by hoffman900 »

modok wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:01 pm Very good illustration of all things discussed.
Port energy is real? :lol:
According to the way it’s calculated, added volume (length) should increase port energy. As we see, it does not correlate. ;)

I posted a whole slew of posts from Clint, Neels, and Jon S which state what you’re seeing in the above.

I’ll try other lengths later. I’ve done some work out at 19”-20” long.

The Yoshimura stacks are gimmicky. They’ll tune to whatever the short stack height is.
-Bob
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