Cam Data from Well-Developed Engines

[CamKing]

Some of us are still looking for that 20 lost HP.

Stan

Well, if the 195cc heads are Brodix-8, Canfield, Competition Products , Ported Dart 180's, or Ported Edelbrock 185's, the single pattern cam alone, will cost at least 20hp by 5,800rpm.

Mike,
I am just trying to understand what you are saying. You said that DV's cam would peak @ 5400 RPM and be down 20 HP. Now you are talking about 5800 RPM. Does this mean that you cam will peak at a higher RPM or that it will peak at the same RPM and hold on longer or ?????

Stan

I'm saying that the single pattern cam, with the heads I listed, will fall off sooner after peak HP. You normally turn an engine 400-600 RPM past peak HP, for a street/strip application. The single pattern isn't the only potential problem, it's just one that could be improved on.

[CamKing]

CamKing, I just bought a cam you ground for another guy who had a different engine combo than me. Will this cam work for me? How much power will it make?

Depends. Does it jive with the 128 theory?
Does it fit the overlap window needed ?
Is it 3/4 race, or Full race ?

You made my point for me!

And you, mine.

[Warp Speed]

The problem I see is that the OP and the thread are misleading people, If this is cam data from a "Well Developed" engine then how is it that every shade tree mechanic that gets their hands on any factory engine changes the cam first and improves on it?

Is it possible that engineers or so stuck inside what the program tells them that they are missing something?

Why don't you get off your high horse, and quit insisting on injecting drama into EVERY THREAD you post in?
How is this thread, and the OP "misleading" anyone?!?
You can either choose to.learn from it, or ignore it and keep going down the narrow path you think is best!
Again, the level of hypocrisy is amazing!
Let's just stick to tech huh?!?
Quit INSISTING everything is about DV. It's really getting annoying!

I feel the same why when you guys do it in other peoples threads! Oh but you guys have higher horses so that makes it ok... Right?

I really try to just disagree and move on. I try to drop a little snippet of why to maybe get people thinking, but typically only come back when supporting my statement, or defending others that are correct, when they are being attacked by the 3 stooges. (Don't freak out over that, it's just my sense of humor). I probably shouldnt and thats my fault. But I'm damn sure not gonna stalk someone to a different site because of it!
Lets leave the drama out of it, and try to leave it technical. There is gonna be differences of opinion (and that's a good thing really), and a few "snarky remarks" (I can't even type snarky without laughing) but calm down, we're not curing cancer here. That is the only way this place will survive.
Otherwise, it's just gonna turn into an infomercial........

[GARY C]

Why don't you get off your high horse, and quit insisting on injecting drama into EVERY THREAD you post in?
How is this thread, and the OP "misleading" anyone?!?
You can either choose to.learn from it, or ignore it and keep going down the narrow path you think is best!
Again, the level of hypocrisy is amazing!
Let's just stick to tech huh?!?
Quit INSISTING everything is about DV. It's really getting annoying!

I feel the same why when you guys do it in other peoples threads! Oh but you guys have higher horses so that makes it ok... Right?

I really try to just disagree and move on. I try to drop a little snippet of why to maybe get people thinking, but typically only come back when supporting my statement, or defending others that are correct, when they are being attacked by the 3 stooges. (Don't freak out over that, it's just my sense of humor). I probably shouldnt and thats my fault. But I'm damn sure not gonna stalk someone to a different site because of it!
Lets leave the drama out of it, and try to leave it technical. There is gonna be differences of opinion (and that's a good thing really), and a few "snarky remarks" (I can't even type snarky without laughing) but calm down, we're not curing cancer here. That is the only way this place will survive.
Otherwise, it's just gonna turn into an infomercial........

That goes both ways but I agree with what your saying.
So what is your take on Jon's OP?

[paulzig]

then how is it that every shade tree mechanic that gets their hands on any factory engine changes the cam first and improves on it?

Well that depends what the criteria is for judgment. Your 'improved' may have done the opposite when considering the bigger picture.

If your cam makes more power then you have improved the power but, have you made the emissions worse? Have you increased noise, vibration and harshness? have you gone over the imposed RPM limit for the components? Will this affect the warranty?

The manufacturers engineers have more constraints than the average hot rodder.

[GARY C]

then how is it that every shade tree mechanic that gets their hands on any factory engine changes the cam first and improves on it?

Well that depends what the criteria is for judgment. Your 'improved' may have done the opposite when considering the bigger picture.

If your cam makes more power then you have improved the power but, have you made the emissions worse? Have you increased noise, vibration and harshness? have you gone over the imposed RPM limit for the components? Will this affect the warranty?

The manufacturers engineers have more constraints than the average hot rodder.

Primarily power, efficiency and still passing emissions would be the guide line, noise and vibration would be less of a concern for a performance vehicle.
As for the limits of the components I would have to give the engineers a giant bonus as the modern day platforms will handle unbelievable power in stock form.
The level of improvement I am referring to would not void warranty except for the fact that the manufacture will do almost anything to keep from having to warrant things but most are aware of this when modifying a factory vehicle.

[SchmidtMotorWorks]

The problem I see is that the OP and the thread are misleading people, If this is cam data from a "Well Developed" engine,,,

Apparently you missed the point.
The list of well developed engines included world class racing engines.
The point is, that if you look at the data from all of them, the STA all quite different, as I mentioned, they range by 30%.
As the graph showed, the line that the most perfect formula could make will always be off by 15%-30% for a significant portion of the engines on that small list.
What this tells you is that if you want to make an effective formula, you need to do at least the following:
1. Take data as input that determines the ideal cam, at a minimum that includes
a. RPM
b. Performance level.
c. Many engine dimensions
2. The formula needs to be based on engines very similar to the engine being planned for,,
or
3. The program needs to take data from at least one other similar benchmark engine that you want to duplicate or change in a way that you know the difference in quantity of time&area, or flow.

,,,then how is it that every shade tree mechanic that gets their hands on any factory engine changes the cam first and improves on it?Is it possible that engineers or so stuck inside what the program tells them that they are missing something?

The fact that you post this tells me that you have not tried to improve on a modern OEM performance engine with a real calibrator.
If the challenge is to make more power in the same RPM ranges, still pass smog, maintain drivabilty and durabilty, it is extremely difficult to do.
Anyone can raise the RPM range and make more power, that is changing the criteria, not improving it.

[GARY C]

The problem I see is that the OP and the thread are misleading people, If this is cam data from a "Well Developed" engine,,,

Apparently you missed the point.
The list of well developed engines included world class racing engines.
The point is, that if you look at the data from all of them, the STA all quite different, as I mentioned, they range by 30%.
As the graph showed, the line that the most perfect formula could make will always be off by 15%-30% for a significant portion of the engines on that small list.
What this tells you is that if you want to make an effective formula, you need to do at least the following:
1. Take data as input that determines the ideal cam, at a minimum that includes
a. RPM
b. Performance level.
c. Many engine dimensions
2. The formula needs to be based on engines very similar to the engine being planned for,,
or
3. The program needs to take data from at least one other similar benchmark engine that you want to duplicate or change in a way that you know the difference in quantity of time&area, or flow.

,,,then how is it that every shade tree mechanic that gets their hands on any factory engine changes the cam first and improves on it?Is it possible that engineers or so stuck inside what the program tells them that they are missing something?

The fact that you post this tells me that you have not tried to improve on a modern OEM performance engine with a real calibrator.
If the challenge is to make more power in the same RPM ranges, still pass smog, maintain drivabilty and durabilty, it is extremely difficult to do.
Anyone can raise the RPM range and make more power, that is changing the criteria, not improving it.

I wouldn't have said it if it wasn't done on a regular bases, I deal with two shops that specialize in this exact thing... BTW, out of every shop I have ever dealt with they do very little to nothing on a computer with the exception of track data logging and EFI and of those that have worked with engine modeling programs they find them to be unimpressive when compared to what actually happens in real world testing.
I'm looking forward to your cam specs on Stan's Blair post and you showing us how it works.

[RevTheory]

I guess the aftermarket didn't get Jon's memo because they've got cams and intakes that beat OEM while still maintaining emissions and fuel requirements within a year of the new platform.

So much for those thousands of hours on hundreds of thousands of dollars programs. A knowledgeable dude fixed it with a flowbench and a cam guy with empirical data.

[paulzig]

I guess the aftermarket didn't get Jon's memo because they've got cams and intakes that beat OEM while still maintaining emissions and fuel requirements within a year of the new platform.

So much for those thousands of hours on hundreds of thousands of dollars programs. A knowledgeable dude fixed it with a flowbench and a cam guy with empirical data.

Do the new cams use the same valve springs as well? Do they fit in to the set budget, even $1 more for a part when you make millions of engines adds up?

What about noise, vibration and harshness tests, EPA noise regs if they had to put an aftermarket header or exhaust to suit, even induction noise is an issue for an intake in OEM? Do they pass a torture/stress test?

[GARY C]

I guess the aftermarket didn't get Jon's memo because they've got cams and intakes that beat OEM while still maintaining emissions and fuel requirements within a year of the new platform.

So much for those thousands of hours on hundreds of thousands of dollars programs. A knowledgeable dude fixed it with a flowbench and a cam guy with empirical data.

Do the new cams use the same valve springs as well? Do they fit in to the set budget, even $1 more for a part when you make millions of engines adds up?

What about noise, vibration and harshness tests, EPA noise regs if they had to put an aftermarket header or exhaust to suit, even induction noise is an issue for an intake in OEM? Do they pass a torture/stress test?

In the mid 90's I think it was John Lingenfelter made a name for himself by increasing the power of the new Corvette by around 100 horsepower by only reworking what came from the factory and was completely undetectable unless you disassembled the engine, he did it to show how much the factory engineers were leaving on the table.
EDIT! Some of this may be by design in conjunction with the aftermarket based on things done with later GM products where they started offing factory installed aftermarket upgrades.
EDIT,EDIT... Shouldn't these elaborate state of the art programs be able to overcome all of that and leave nothing on the table? After all that seem to be Jon's claim is that through these programs you can solve anything?

[SchmidtMotorWorks]

I guess the aftermarket didn't get Jon's memo because they've got cams and intakes that beat OEM while still maintaining emissions and fuel requirements within a year of the new platform.

So much for those thousands of hours on hundreds of thousands of dollars programs. A knowledgeable dude fixed it with a flowbench and a cam guy with empirical data.

Thanks for demonstrating how little you know.

[SchmidtMotorWorks]

In the mid 90's I think it was John Lingenfelter made a name for himself by increasing the power of the new Corvette by around 100 horsepower by only reworking what came from the factory and was completely undetectable unless you disassembled the engine, he did it to show how much the factory engineers were leaving on the table.
EDIT! Some of this may be by design in conjunction with the aftermarket based on things done with later GM products where they started offing factory installed aftermarket upgrades.
EDIT,EDIT... Shouldn't these elaborate state of the art programs be able to overcome all of that and leave nothing on the table? After all that seem to be Jon's claim is that through these programs you can solve anything?

In the early to mid 1990's there wasn't even a parametric CAD system capable of modeling an engine.
I was working on development of the CAD system they eventually used at GM; Unigraphics so I know all the details about what they could do and when they could do it.

[RevTheory]

I guess the aftermarket didn't get Jon's memo because they've got cams and intakes that beat OEM while still maintaining emissions and fuel requirements within a year of the new platform.

So much for those thousands of hours on hundreds of thousands of dollars programs. A knowledgeable dude fixed it with a flowbench and a cam guy with empirical data.

Thanks for demonstrating how little you know.

Can't back up your position so go straight to condescension. We've all seen it before, Jon.

[SchmidtMotorWorks]

I guess the aftermarket didn't get Jon's memo because they've got cams and intakes that beat OEM while still maintaining emissions and fuel requirements within a year of the new platform.

So much for those thousands of hours on hundreds of thousands of dollars programs. A knowledgeable dude fixed it with a flowbench and a cam guy with empirical data.

Thanks for demonstrating how little you know.

Can't back up your position so go straight to condescension. We've all seen it before, Jon.

I do what you are talking about for a living, you are very confused about what happens in development.
Generally it is possible to design to fill a new niche with different criteria, but if you try to keep the same criteria there is very little to nothing on the table in a 2018 car.