How much does average guy leave on the table vs. pro in mundane build?

[GARY C]

Most pro shops do not have customers willing to fund R&D and are to busy servicing the customers needs to do it them selves where many average/hobbyist main priority is R&D.

I build engines for myself to try new things. Pretty good R&D.

A lot of my builder buddies also drag race their own stuff. Some others participate in EMC, etc.

It's good to have people that are actively involved plus you know that they may not be the one to listen to if they continually finish at the back of the field.

[NewbVetteGuy]

Depends upon who the professional is and who the hobbyist is, right?

I also like the previous poster who highlighted that the hobbyist can do many things themselves and save on labor, but they're not going to have the connections and bulk buying power to get the same discounts on the hardware unless they work really hard and take forever.


This hobbyist sure did ok by himself mostly: http://www.chevelles.com/forums/13-perf ... -test.html

Then there's Rick360 the self-described "hobbyist" who was on a winning Engine Master's team last year, but if you've read many of Rick's posts on here, you know he's either a former professional or a freak-of-nature and belongs in some sort of automotive traveling circus side-show. (I mean that in the best possible way, Rick.)
https://www.hotrod.com/articles/get-570 ... -pump-gas/

But you're looking for generalizations and rules-of-thumb and I'm posting exceptions...


Adam

My guess is if you contacted the shop that they were involved with he would not sell you that engine combo, you would get one that produces less power, not because he can't but because those engines are produced to make max power and would probably not have the same longevity that he wants for his reputation.

My machine shop hates nitrous and will not put his name on a nitrous engine because when the engine blows up is makes him look bad but he loves nitrous customers because when an engine blows up they have to pay him to fix it.

They wouldn't sell someone off the street a flat tappet cam SBC with 1.8 ratio rockers?!? That's probably a good thing, BUT I think the thread on that build highlighted that an aggressiveish hydraulic roller and 1.6 rockers or a more normal hydraulic roller and 1.65 rockers could duplicate the valve action without a problem. Beyond that, a lightly touched up Motown intake and off-the-shelf TRI-Ys. The tricky part that I fear would increase the cost would be the porting of the heads and putting those huge 50 degree valves and valve seats in.

Honestly, I think they SHOULD tame it down a little bit and sell the crap out of it as a crate. Even if it lost 40 hp on the top end; still a fantastic street / strip motor.

I'm going way off topic, though... Sorry OP.


Adam

[CGT]

That's probably a good thing, BUT I think the thread on that build highlighted that an aggressiveish hydraulic roller and 1.6 rockers or a more normal hydraulic roller and 1.65 rockers could duplicate the valve action without a problem.

It would do more than duplicate it.

[steve316]

I believe the shop Rick360 was with would be happy to build a motor in the same power level or higher.

[Frankshaft]

I'll offer my response as a percentage of the professional level based on what I have seen among those I race with.
Professional 1
Average .91
Low .82
Poor .76

I started to type a long winded reply, even favoring the average home guy in some instances. But, to conclude, to match or beat the pro, the home guy still needs a pro in some capacity to have a chance.

I have seen a few amateurs match the pros, but they are not the average. I like to think I could match them...if I wanted , but in my arena HP is not everything and can make you slower if you aren't up to the challenge.

Did they machine their own block, balance their rotating assembly? Do the valve job and surface the heads, etc. That's what I meant.

[steve cowan]

good point Frankshaft,
guys at my engine building level (learner) have to have trust in there machine shop,i have been guilty of using a lot of different machine shops over the years because they make a mistake,take to long etc,
everyone stuffs up thats part of life and everyone deserves a second chance but if you keep making the same mistake over and over again you probably need therapy

[Jeff Lee]

If we are describing a DIY, doest that involve using a torque plate and a proper Sunen hone by a professional? Or are we talking a ball hone with a drill on the garage floor (not that that won’t work). But the difference right there could be significant. And long ago I got away from shelf pistons to custom because the tolerances are so much better for what I consider a reasonable difference in expenditure; including better than average shelf rings. I was told by an old timer long ago that this was all about “ring seal, ring seal and ring seal". Best to worst I say there can be around 50 HP on this hypothetical 350.

A little off the chart but same idea, I have seen a few big inch, super high HP engines like you would see in a full page ad in various publications that don’t perform as you would expect. If sent for independent engine dyno, the power can be way less than advertised. I think the deal here is that most buyers won’t know that the 1,000 HP engine is only making 800 HP. If they drop it in their Nova and it scares the crap out of them, its all good. I’d bet a very, very small percentage of these engines come back to the seller and that’s the business model.
I’ve also witnessed big name engines come in for a re-build only to find mix-and-match parts.
In these cases, maybe the hobbyist can do a better job.

[steve cowan]

i have been around drag racing for a while and i have talked to a few people who have bought big dollar apparently good horspower engines from international suppliers and there have been times when engines have not performed, and on disassembly found a sub-par combo in parts and machining,
i am not here to bash anyone but me personally if i could afford a decent engine package from a decent supplier i would disassemble and inspect,measure and try and learn something and if money would allow re-dyno the engine for some data,
the biggest problem for myself is i dont have anyone who will dyno a engine for me without shipping it away as all the big shops here are really busy with supercar and outlaw sprint car engines and are not even interested in talking about putting my piles of junk on the dyno

[user-23911]

Well said........dis assemble and inspect.


That's the best way to learn something new.

[user-30257]

If all parts are the same and clearances. Does the engine know who is building it?

The pro may choose a better oil pan, or set the leaks tighter than a novice. better ring package, move bores around, chanhe dowel location, Use more head, cam, compression than a novice to attain the hp a customer wants.

I'm not saying an amateur can't beat a pro, it happens and can be done if the amateur has a good understanding.

Example if a guy comes to me asking for 1100hp BBC, it needs to make 1101. If it makes 1099 it's not 1100. An amatuer may make 1070 and call it good. I see often guys copy internet builds and I tell them the combo won't make the power they want. Why? Because a guy that builds and dynos daily, knows what it takes to make the power.

Pretty much the guy with the most attention to detail will win. And a pro can't afford to give away labor, and that is where a do it yourself guy has the advantage.

[ptuomov]

Pretty much the guy with the most attention to detail will win. And a pro can't afford to give away labor, and that is where a do it yourself guy has the advantage.

Makes sense. I think that for us to make progress with this question, we'd have to start making some estimates where these "getting details right" make difference.

[GARY C]

I believe the shop Rick360 was with would be happy to build a motor in the same power level or higher.

It's not that he couldn't or wouldn't but few customers will be willing to pay for multiple cams, intakes, carbs, headers and oil pans as well as pay the man hours and dyno time to test all said parts, the last 25 horse could easily approach the cost of the engine it's self and that added power comes at the cost of longevity or more expensive parts to make it live.

[FC-Pilot]

I am a backyard hack, so I feel I can give a valid view into my mindset when I am building my stuff. One thing is I can't afford to have valve action on the ragged edge of control, so I choose or have a cam cut that is a little more modest on the ramps. Second is I know a head with too much cross section will not recover like a port a little on the smaller side, so I error on the smaller side there. Also, to make sure valve jobs last I don't go for radical valve jobs, but favor seats that are a little wider than what might be "optimal for best power". In a number of areas I know I am giving up some power that I know others might not want to, but I am OK with all of that. I target the build to make more power than is needed for the application, and then let the power fall where it may.

As an example, the last engine I built was a pump gas 350 for my boat. I used iron EQ heads I ported myself and went with a moderate HR cam. It made 482 HP. With a solid cam and more porting and a bigger carb and more RPM's I am sure I could have pulled out another 50HP, but longevity would have suffered and that is not what I needed.

Paul

[Frankshaft]

I believe the shop Rick360 was with would be happy to build a motor in the same power level or higher.

It's not that he couldn't or wouldn't but few customers will be willing to pay for multiple cams, intakes, carbs, headers and oil pans as well as pay the man hours and dyno time to test all said parts, the last 25 horse could easily approach the cost of the engine it's self and that added power comes at the cost of longevity or more expensive parts to make it live.

That's one of the advantages the pro has. I already know which cam, oil pan, intake, carb, bore prep, valve job the porting required, on which ever heads, and or which ones to start with, headers, etc etc to use because I have already been there done that, and what's needed and what's not necessary for a given combo to make live. Which pieces and parts to use, and which to avoid. As do many others in the business. Wether or not we always spill the beans, is one thing. But I definitely help my do it yourselvers save themselves some grief. But won't give everything away.

[paulzig]

part that I fear would increase the cost would be the porting of the heads and putting those huge 50 degree valves and valve seats in.

Well, getting the seats cut to 50 using the same heads and then cleaning up blending the cuts in yourself leaving the rest of the port stock wont cost too much even if you lost 20-30HP you'd still be doing OK..