1960's engine wars

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

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Turbo231
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Re: 1960's engine wars

Post by Turbo231 »

PackardV8 wrote: Tue Jul 17, 2018 2:39 pm
Did any non-Chevy GM engines make it into Can Am? I know some of them were very capable competitors on the street
Hemi-powered McKee Mk. V Sports Racer.

In 1965, Richard Petty found himself on the sidelines of NASCAR’s Grand National series, a victim of the sanctioning body’s (temporary) ban on Chrysler’s Hemi V-8 engines. Eager to explore other racing options, Petty struck up a conversation with race car builder Bob McKee, who accepted a project to build The King a Can-Am car, powered by a Hemi V-8. By the time said car was completed, the NASCAR Hemi ban had been lifted and Petty was once again at the top of his stock car game; still, the 1965 McKee Mk. V Sports Racer raises the question, “What if things had worked out differently that year?”

When completed, the Hemi-powered McKee had 600 horsepower, in a package just over 1,600 pounds dry and on a 96-inch wheelbase. Such a race car does not forgive many mistakes, so Chrysler’s director of racing, Ronnie Householder, connected fighter-pilot-turned-roadracer Bob Montana with McKee. The fact that Montana also owned a successful and performance-oriented Chrysler-Plymouth dealership in Phoenix, Arizona (which regularly played host to the Ramchargers drag racing team), probably didn’t hurt either.

Montana purchased the car from McKee in late 1965 and managed to quickly put up two SCCA class wins before the season ended. In 1966, he reportedly qualified fifth on the grid for the Los Angeles Times Grand Prix at Riverside, a race that also included star drivers such as Mario Andretti, Pedro Rodriguez, Phil Hill and A.J. Foyt. The car saw action in the Can-Am series as well, although its razor’s-edge combination of short wheelbase, somewhat flexible tube frame chassis and massive horsepower made it a handful to drive with anything resembling consistency. By the end of the 1967 season, the rise of monocoque-chassis race cars from constructors like McLaren and Lola made the McKee obsolete in the Can-Am series, and Montana reportedly retired the car from Can-Am competition in 1968. It was still competitive in the SCCA, however, and Montana continued to race the Mk. V in SCCA competition until 1969.
That is awesome. I have always been a Mopar fan and never knew this car existed. Thanks for sharing.
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Re: 1960's engine wars

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Turbo231 wrote: Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:07 am
gmrocket wrote: Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:31 pm
Turbo231 wrote: Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:59 am After starting my post on Can Am engines, I started wondering about comparing the top engines from the 1960's and what their true potentials would be today. My list is:

Ford 427 SOHC
Ford 428 CJ
Ford Boss 429
Chrysler Hemi 426
Chevy 427

Say you have to use stock block and head castings and limit displacement to 430 cid. Fuel can be 110+ octane. Everything else is fair game including fixing any inherent oiling problems. Since this topic started with Can Am, all engines have to run mechanical fuel injection. Again, we are not building a drag race engine. We want something with longevity. Also, we will not worry about the engine weight and just look at power potential.

How would you rate these in order of power potential?
I think you can add Olds to that list...can am and the 455 69 H/O and 70 W30
Did any non-Chevy GM engines make it into Can Am? I know some of them were very capable competitors on the street.
Both small block and big block Olds were developed for can am. The small block first in 1966 and later on in 1969 a crazy all aluminum 455 twin turbo fuel injected all wheel drive with a switch pitch/variable stall converter was on the scene..apparently ahead of its time on acceleration. Something like 700+hp ...But brake issued plagued it.

There are some good write ups on the Olds in can am...
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Re: 1960's engine wars

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I think you can add Olds to that list...can am and the 455 69 H/O and 70 W30
[/quote]

Did any non-Chevy GM engines make it into Can Am? I know some of them were very capable competitors on the street.
[/quote]

Both small block and big block Olds were developed for can am. The small block first in 1966 and later on in 1969 a crazy all aluminum 455 twin turbo fuel injected all wheel drive with a switch pitch/variable stall converter was on the scene..apparently ahead of its time on acceleration. Something like 700+hp ...But brake issued plagued it.

There are some good write ups on the Olds in can am...
[/quote]

I would love to see some of these. Know anyone that might have and can share? Thanks.
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Re: 1960's engine wars

Post by Newold1 »

Heck you wanna see engine wars now, just look in the showroom floor today! 850hp Dodge Demons, 750hp Corvette ZL1'S, new 750+up Ford Mustang, jeez it's the 60 's on steroids !! :lol:
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Re: 1960's engine wars

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Newold1 wrote: Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:47 pm Heck you wanna see engine wars now, just look in the showroom floor today! 850hp Dodge Demons, 750hp Corvette ZL1'S, new 750+up Ford Mustang, jeez it's the 60 's on steroids !! :lol:
Yes, there are some amazing cars out now but very $$$$$$$$$. I am still waiting for something comparable to a '68 Roadrunner with the Demon engine :) . Think we will ever get that?
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Re: 1960's engine wars

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Turbo231 wrote: Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:54 pm
Newold1 wrote: Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:47 pm Heck you wanna see engine wars now, just look in the showroom floor today! 850hp Dodge Demons, 750hp Corvette ZL1'S, new 750+up Ford Mustang, jeez it's the 60 's on steroids !! :lol:
Yes, there are some amazing cars out now but very $$$$$$$$$. I am still waiting for something comparable to a '68 Roadrunner with the Demon engine :) . Think we will ever get that?
Put yesteryear’s MSRP in an inflation calculator and it makes it all more palatable.

Also the performance and reliability today is incredible. A 1LE Camaro today is faster around a track than most purpose built race cars 40 years ago.

Grassroots Motorsports about 15 years ago did a performance competition of a Honda Oddessy vs a Jaguar E-Type and a Porsche 356. They weren’t even close. Add in another 15 years of development on the Honda and it’s more so.
-Bob
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Re: 1960's engine wars

Post by Newold1 »

If you've got the wallet I think Year One will build you a 68 Plymouth and there are a few engine builders that are building the Demon 6.2L supercharged 840HP engine you can have slipped in the 68 and you've got one of your Bucket List items checked off!

Nothing is impossible it just takes more money! :wink:
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Re: 1960's engine wars

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I'm a bike guy and it's just as crazy with new bikes...there's about 10 bike models that can run, with experienced riders, high 9's at near 150 mph and another 20 into the low 10's.This is bone stock ..About 10-15 grand for a new one...Back in the early 70's fast bikes were in the 12's, about 5 different models..
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Re: 1960's engine wars

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Truckedup wrote: Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:03 pm I'm a bike guy and it's just as crazy with new bikes...there's about 10 bike models that can run, with experienced riders, high 9's at near 150 mph and another 20 into the low 10's.This is bone stock ..About 10-15 grand for a new one...Back in the early 70's fast bikes were in the 12's, about 5 different models..
And put professional riders on them, mod them a bit, and they turn faster lap times than current vintage Can-Am cars - which are up 200hp on yesteryear and with better tires today too.
-Bob
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Re: 1960's engine wars

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hoffman900 wrote: Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:06 pm
Truckedup wrote: Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:03 pm I'm a bike guy and it's just as crazy with new bikes...there's about 10 bike models that can run, with experienced riders, high 9's at near 150 mph and another 20 into the low 10's.This is bone stock ..About 10-15 grand for a new one...Back in the early 70's fast bikes were in the 12's, about 5 different models..
And put professional riders on them, mod them a bit, and they turn faster lap times than current vintage Can-Am cars - which are up 200hp on yesteryear and with better tires today too.
Modern race bikes, Moto GP ,about 240 hp and 600 pounds with the rider, can accelerate faster than a F1 car but the car can brake later and carry more speed in the turns...Riding a smooth street bike that can hit 150 in less than 10 seconds is an experience to remember...
Motorcycle land speed racing... wearing animal hides and clinging to vibrating oily machines propelled by fire
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Re: 1960's engine wars

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Truckedup wrote: Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:18 pm
hoffman900 wrote: Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:06 pm
Truckedup wrote: Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:03 pm I'm a bike guy and it's just as crazy with new bikes...there's about 10 bike models that can run, with experienced riders, high 9's at near 150 mph and another 20 into the low 10's.This is bone stock ..About 10-15 grand for a new one...Back in the early 70's fast bikes were in the 12's, about 5 different models..
And put professional riders on them, mod them a bit, and they turn faster lap times than current vintage Can-Am cars - which are up 200hp on yesteryear and with better tires today too.
Modern race bikes, Moto GP ,about 240 hp and 600 pounds with the rider, can accelerate faster than a F1 car but the car can brake later and carry more speed in the turns...Riding a smooth street bike that can hit 150 in less than 10 seconds is an experience to remember...
The Superbikes were turning 2:11s at Road America this past spring with a chicane at the kink (adds about 8 seconds).

Pole time in 1970 was a 2:10.6. Pole time last year in the UOP Shadow was a 2:04.

Take the chicane out at the Superbikes are in the 2:03 range. Not bad for a production based bike! The lap times are in the 2:15-2:17 range for the top small block cars with hobby gentlemen drivers.

Laguna Seca 2016 Rolex Historics: 1:24.499 UOP Shadow. 2018 MotoAmerica Superpole time 1:22.9. WSBK (better tires than MotoAmerica) 1:22.2
-Bob
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Re: 1960's engine wars

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One of the things about the new cars is the street manners. Daily drivers that run 10s. I don't understand the bike thing, These guys drive around in the lower gears to keep it on the pipe with legal speed limit of 65. Race vehicles on the highway.
So much to do, so little time...
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Re: 1960's engine wars

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rfoll wrote: Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:20 pm One of the things about the new cars is the street manners. Daily drivers that run 10s. I don't understand the bike thing, These guys drive around in the lower gears to keep it on the pipe with legal speed limit of 65. Race vehicles on the highway.
Modern stock 160 rear wheel HP 1000 cc plus bikes don't need to be kept on the pipe ,they have a good spread of power.. The 600 cc sport bikes can touch high tens with a good rider but obviously have far less low speed power...
Young men on fast bikes, they like to sound like racers.But often they are not dressed like racers, not good if you need to get off the bike..Bikes can get away with more on the street, they are much smaller than cars, they don't smoke the rear tires or try to spin off the road from wild fishtailing..If you can keep the front down it's time and space altering acceleration
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Re: 1960's engine wars

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rfoll wrote: Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:20 pm One of the things about the new cars is the street manners. Daily drivers that run 10s. I don't understand the bike thing, These guys drive around in the lower gears to keep it on the pipe with legal speed limit of 65. Race vehicles on the highway.
They do that because it’s obnoxious and it sounds “cool”. Those bikes have no problem putting around.

Don’t get me started on Harley riders...
-Bob
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Re: 1960's engine wars

Post by PackardV8 »

Wandering somewhat off topic into bikes, we might as well wander into EVs.
rfoll wrote: Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:20 pmOne of the things about the new cars is the street manners.
For seventy years I've built rods and race cars, driven the fastest showroom stockers available, including a sampling of the new Vette/Mustang/Hellcat ilk; they're mind-bendingly fast.

The first time I drove the Tesla, engaged "Ludicrous" and all one's previous street car experiences become so last century. I knew how the blacksmith felt. Standing over a roaring forge on the side of a dirt road, pounding on a red hot horseshoe, he sees his first car go by. "Well, that changes things."
"Tesla's Model S P100D is the fastest accelerating production car in the world, thanks to a Spaceballs-inspired software update. In a recent Motor Trend test, the Model S P100D hit 0-60 mph in 2.275507139 seconds. Launching a Model S P100D (weighing 5,062 with gear and driver) in full-on Ludicrous mode snaps your body in a manner that is utterly impossible to replicate in any other street-legal production car on normal tires and dry asphalt."
What makes it so mind-bending is not just the rate of acceleration, as the fastest street cars I've been in have gone almost that quick. However, the Tesla does it in utter silence and comfort. The fast street rods revved high, spun the tires, made smoke, rattled, shook, and one was always hoping it would stay together and stay straight. And the Tesla comes with four-wheel drive and a warranty; a year-round luxury sedan.

Your opinions and results may vary, but you owe yourself a test drive. The Tesla showroom will be pleased to schedule one, as that's all they do is show, explain and test drive. They can't try to sell you one.
Last edited by PackardV8 on Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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