Sleeves' material

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

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Re: Sleeves' material

Post by 4vpc »

peejay wrote: Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:24 am Interestingly, when Mazda expanded the bore on the Duratec/MZR engine to make the 2.5l (went from 87.5mm to 89mm), they changed the dry sleeve material from cast iron to 4340 steel.
I don't think they did, I've seen one with some pretty big chips out of it where a rod got loose, it didn't look very ductile to me or the guy that bored it out.
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Post by dwilliams »

Yeah, and many of those old airplane engines rated normal oil consumption in "gallons per flight."

They used steel to reduce wear; military and commercial airplane engines get a lot more hours than car engines, and overhauls are way more expensive.

The usual system was to machine the sleeve, chrome plate the inside, then hone a cross-hatch on the chrome.

Nowadays with various materials inlaid into ring faces it might be possible to do much better, though.
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Re: Sleeves' material

Post by modok »

I would guess advantages MORE to do with being lightweight and more easily plated.
20% lighter cylinder could be worth going after for an airplane, but, you can do the math yourself it isn't much, and in a watercooled engine even less. Designing an automotive engine with Individual sleeves generally ends up being heavier than one piece cast block, using steel VS iron would not make enough difference to reverse that. At least not how it's generally done.

Steel tubing is easily mass produced, it's a shame that it doesn't work. Many have tried. Ford for instance, it kinda worked.... at least comparably to iron, if you consider airfilters were not very advanced at the time.
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Re: Sleeves' material

Post by hoodeng »

One thing about steel cylinders on aircraft radials was that the fins were pressed on and i think down to about .060-.080" gap on the highest output engines, i believe they did not go less as there was no further benefit.
I will have to hit the library if confirmation is reqd.
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Re: Sleeves' material

Post by engineguyBill »

As has been pointed out in several previous posts, ductile iron cylinder sleeves work very well with just about all ring materials. They also hold up very well under severe loads . . . . . . .
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Post by dwilliams »

hoodeng wrote: Thu Jun 27, 2019 4:32 amI will have to hit the library if confirmation is reqd.
NACA did quite a bit of "blow it up on the dyno" basic research on that sort of thing. NASA scanned most of the old technical papers, but they changed their search interface a few years back, and I find it hard to navigate now.

Her Majesty's Government has a mirror of the old NASA site at http://naca.central.cranfield.ac.uk/. There are some British papers up there as well. It's much easier to use than the new NASA site.

Boeing, Curtiss-Wright, General Motors, and others also did primary research; I spent a lot of time and some money trying to track down papers referenced in modern textbooks. Boeing has no idea where their papers went, Curtiss-Wright put them all into storage somewhere in Mississippi, who knows what happened to them after that. I managed to get copies of a few from GM, which has *some* of them in their internal engineering library, but apparently not all.
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Re: Sleeves' material

Post by Kevin Johnson »

The key advantage to the NASA site is that the pdf files have been scanned with OCR. If you download them, Adobe Acrobat will support searching for specific terms.

Many of the "more interesting" technical papers have had access to them restricted. Be careful unless you want to join the no-fly list.
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Re: Sleeves' material

Post by Kevin Johnson »

dwilliams wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2019 5:16 pm ... Curtiss-Wright put them all into storage somewhere in Mississippi, who knows what happened to them after that. ...
Alexandria, MS ?

:wink: :lol:
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Re: Sleeves' material

Post by hoodeng »

dwilliams wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2019 5:16 pm
hoodeng wrote: Thu Jun 27, 2019 4:32 amI will have to hit the library if confirmation is reqd.
NACA did quite a bit of "blow it up on the dyno" basic research on that sort of thing. NASA scanned most of the old technical papers, but they changed their search interface a few years back, and I find it hard to navigate now.

Her Majesty's Government has a mirror of the old NASA site at http://naca.central.cranfield.ac.uk/. There are some British papers up there as well. It's much easier to use than the new NASA site.

Boeing, Curtiss-Wright, General Motors, and others also did primary research; I spent a lot of time and some money trying to track down papers referenced in modern textbooks. Boeing has no idea where their papers went, Curtiss-Wright put them all into storage somewhere in Mississippi, who knows what happened to them after that. I managed to get copies of a few from GM, which has *some* of them in their internal engineering library, but apparently not all.
Some years back , i noticed in a lot of my aircraft books i was buying in the reference section the book "Development of aircraft engines and fuels" by Schlaifer and Herron, featured regularly,,so,, the quest,very rare book, got one,cost a packet and relevant to that day. A more recent book set called "Fuels and Engines" by Guibet is still pretty dated. [ i bought these in 02] but a great read.

It all comes down to what we draw from what we read,for some,enlightenment, others, pure entertainment. As i age i find the early books transitioning from the first to the second.
Oddly, i know guys that are pretty clever and have not read a book since school it seems, i couldn't do this,there is always a stack on the bedside table.
The best technology availabe to us today is what reputable manufacturers offer,but space tech will always lead land tech.

I will check the websites you have identified.

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Re: Sleeves' material

Post by Malvn »

I saved this from a site I was on but can remember when or what website So its a Copy & Paste .

What is in Ductile Iron? (Composition)
If you were to do a chemical analysis of ductile iron, this is what you would normally find:

Iron ~94%

Carbon 3.2 – 3.60%

Silicon 2.2 – 2.8%

Manganese 0.1 – 0.2%

Magnesium 0.03 – 0.04%

Phosphorus 0.005 – 0.04%

Sulfur 0.005 – 0.02%

Copper <= 0.40%

To improve the strength of ductile iron, additional tin or copper can be added. To improve corrosion resistance, copper, nickel, or chromium can replace anywhere from 15-30% of the iron.

What are the Benefits of Ductile Iron?
Ductile iron castings are very strong compared to regular cast iron (gray iron). The tensile strength of cast iron is 20,000 – 60,000 psi while ductile iron starts at 60,000 psi and can go to 120,000 psi. The yield strength for ductile iron is generally 40,000 – 90,000 psi but the yield strength of cast iron is so low it is considered not measurable.

Let us put strength in a different way. We have seen gray iron parts break when they hit the ground after falling ten feet. With a ductile iron casting, you can hit the part all day long with an eight-pound sledge hammer and it is not likely to crack.

What causes the problem for gray iron is those graphite flakes which encourage fractures along the flakes, while the nodules in ductile iron work at keeping the iron together. Given the exact same scenario of the same part made from the two different metals, while the brittle gray iron wants to crack, the ductile iron wants to bend.

Ductile iron also has what is called excellent wear resistance because of the graphite in the iron. When you have something rubbing against ductile iron, the ductile iron wears away much slower than many other metals. The wear resistance is partly from the graphite structures that can act like a dry lubricant on the iron.

Ductile iron also dissipates (gets rid of) heat very well and can be machined fairly easily, though ductile iron is harder to work with than regular gray cast iron. Ductile cast iron dampens vibration and sound much better than steel would making ductile iron a good match for use on large machines.

What is Ductile Iron Used For? (Applications)
Ductile iron is great for use where you need strong metal with wear resistance.

Here is a sample list of things made from or contain ductile iron:

Pipe and pipe fittings (almost 50% of ductile iron sold in the US is for pipe and fittings)

Axles

Connecting rods (like in engines)

Crankshafts

Cylinders

Disc brake calipers

Gears and Gear Boxes

Housings and manifolds

Hydrostatic Barrels

Idler arms

Large Machines

Machine Tooling

Military uses

Piano Harps (the part that holds the strings of a piano)

Spindle supports

Steering knuckles

Suspension system parts

Truck axles

Valves (especially high-pressure valves)

Wheel hubs

Yokes for power transmission
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Re: Sleeves' material

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Re: Sleeves' material

Post by Matt80 »

So is there anyone making steel sleeves and Nikasil plating them?
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Re: Sleeves' material

Post by enigma57 »

In an inline 6 engine...... If all 6 cylinders were sleeved (nodular iron sleeves)...... Would this destroy the structural integrity of the block as compared to a similar unsleeved block? This being a block for a road car, so no partial fill of water jackets.

Just wondering,

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Re: Sleeves' material

Post by modok »

All you can say for sure is that it ISN'T stronger.
Two separate pieces is never stronger than one piece, tho many times it has been done and worked OK
Mostly for antique restoration and stock rebuilds.
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Re: Sleeves' material

Post by enigma57 »

Seems it would lessen overall structural rigidity if I'm thinking about this in the right way, modok.

Just wondering,

Harry
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