Pro Stock Shocks
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vetteman9368
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Pro Stock Shocks
I light of the new rule from NHRA regarding shock absorbers in Pro Stock, and rumors of $50k per shock. Does anyone here know the specifics of these pieces and what EXACTLY they were accomplishing with them?
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Mark Workman
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This rule?
<Suspension: Add “Active suspension of any kind prohibited. Any ability to make on track setting/rate changes based on “real time” data or input from any source, including the shock/strut itself (i.e. magnetically charged fluid) is prohibited.
Electrically controlled, hydraulic shocks and/or struts are permitted, provided all adjustment settings/changes are pre-set before the run. Only 1 three-wire shielded cable connection is permitted from the top of the shock/strut, to the shock/strut controller. Electrical connections of any other kind to or from the shock/strut prohibited. Shock/strut travel sensors permitted, but may ONLY be connected to the vehicle data recorder. Shock/strut control boxes that have connections for travel sensors must have the pin removed from the connector. Connection to serial port on control box prohibited once car reaches the ready line. All wiring must be visible and easily traceable for technical inspector. Control boxes must be NHRA accepted. Accepted boxes are the “old” Koni, the “Koni/MSD”, “Koni/Ness” and the “Koni/JBRC”. Bottom of shock/strut may have a maximum of 3 air lines connected to an air bottle.”>
I don't have first-hand knowledge, but that rule tells me they were using (or developing) some form of active suspension. If so, it is such an improvement over normal suspesion that it was banned from Formula One back in the '80s. It is THAT good. It is a real-time, infinitely variable suspension similar to the fly-by-wire system used in aircraft. Shocks and springs are replaced by transducers that report suspension velocity and movement back to a microprocessor, which in turn can change the resistance (spring rate) or load(weight jacking) many thousand times a second. Conventional springs are present only to hold the car up off the ground when the engine ( and thus the hydraulic pump) is shut off. It's not just 4 $50K shocks, it's a whole system. I would think that "Only" $200K would be a bargain due to the program development time. The EASY part is seeing what is happening. The real work is looking at that data and figuring out WHAT to do. Allan Staniforth's book (Competition Car Suspension) has a much more detailed explanation of the theory and practice as it was used in F1. Good reading.
Mark
<Suspension: Add “Active suspension of any kind prohibited. Any ability to make on track setting/rate changes based on “real time” data or input from any source, including the shock/strut itself (i.e. magnetically charged fluid) is prohibited.
Electrically controlled, hydraulic shocks and/or struts are permitted, provided all adjustment settings/changes are pre-set before the run. Only 1 three-wire shielded cable connection is permitted from the top of the shock/strut, to the shock/strut controller. Electrical connections of any other kind to or from the shock/strut prohibited. Shock/strut travel sensors permitted, but may ONLY be connected to the vehicle data recorder. Shock/strut control boxes that have connections for travel sensors must have the pin removed from the connector. Connection to serial port on control box prohibited once car reaches the ready line. All wiring must be visible and easily traceable for technical inspector. Control boxes must be NHRA accepted. Accepted boxes are the “old” Koni, the “Koni/MSD”, “Koni/Ness” and the “Koni/JBRC”. Bottom of shock/strut may have a maximum of 3 air lines connected to an air bottle.”>
I don't have first-hand knowledge, but that rule tells me they were using (or developing) some form of active suspension. If so, it is such an improvement over normal suspesion that it was banned from Formula One back in the '80s. It is THAT good. It is a real-time, infinitely variable suspension similar to the fly-by-wire system used in aircraft. Shocks and springs are replaced by transducers that report suspension velocity and movement back to a microprocessor, which in turn can change the resistance (spring rate) or load(weight jacking) many thousand times a second. Conventional springs are present only to hold the car up off the ground when the engine ( and thus the hydraulic pump) is shut off. It's not just 4 $50K shocks, it's a whole system. I would think that "Only" $200K would be a bargain due to the program development time. The EASY part is seeing what is happening. The real work is looking at that data and figuring out WHAT to do. Allan Staniforth's book (Competition Car Suspension) has a much more detailed explanation of the theory and practice as it was used in F1. Good reading.
Mark
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Ed-vancedEngines
http://www.voy.com/120143/
Hi Tech -- fly on the wall, 01:19:48 03/04/07 Sun
As promised: the lowdown on the new high tech (and extremely expensive) PS shock system.
At the Tokyo auto show the breakdown of the new Honda F1 car clearly identified the vehicle was using a centrally-located independently managed (controlled from computers sitting miles away in race stations) system that allowed the racecar to act as a single proprietary unit.
The central processing systems regulated the activities of the nitrogen-assist units built into the shock system, allowing the shock itself to be nothing more than a constantly adjusted 4-way valve.
The cost of the F1 computer system is astronomical. However, the cost of the actual F1 shock (currently about $10k) is contained in simple materials being constructed into a valve/canister configuration.
In NHRA, it would be illegal for a team to run centrally operated computer systems that monitor and adjust shock functions (a form of traction control).
So to fit the "gray" area of NHRA, the cost of construction for a batch of shocks, self contained and individually monitored, including R&D, could (and does) run in the range of $100,000 quite easily.
Specifically, the cost of having to create multiple versions of the boards and firmware to go with the shocks themselves could increase the cost dramatically, whereas F1 does not have this limitation.
The cost of an self-contained dampening system that is individually computerized, is much more expensive than the costs of an F1 shock which is controlled through the ultra expensive central computer system.
Not to worry, the NHRA last week outlawed this most recent technology (at least for drag racing) and it will probably be a while before we see a set in TPSA.......LOL
[ Post a Reply to this Message ][Edit]
Heard Don Holcomb got himself some of those new Magneto-rheological- responsive Shocks for the back of his race car. They are supposed to detect tire shake before it happens and compensate real time as the car leaves the line. No more tire shake perfect launch every time... Must be nice!!! --
Hi -Tech, 16:53:53 03/01/07 Thu
[ Post a Reply to this Message ][Edit]
Replies:
Ask Greg and Jason about 'em....LOL. $60k EACH, that's right, not $60K a pair!
NHRA's already outlawed them so another "Black" rule is in the books.... (NT) --
wannabe, 17:28:16 03/01/07 Thu
I guess there will be no more whining from him about having an out of date old car. (NT) --
He just stepped up to the "high dollar car" catagory, 21:21:45 03/01/07 Thu
Are sure you meant $60K ?
That is $60,000 per shock.!!! Is the decimal in the right place? (NT) -- Most cars don't cost that much!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, 08:04:13 03/02/07 Fri
Hahaha...... Maybe not the car, but the some of these new TPSA motors are coming pretty close! (NT) --
Tellin'it like it is!, 09:22:40 03/02/07 Fri
to be precise Team Black paid $52k EACH......
that makes a pair of shocks and controllers a 6 figure investment! I've got some particulars that I'll post when I get time. (NT) -- PS..NHRA has already outlawed them. The technology came from the F1 world, now there's a surprize.....
.DH, 13:34:23 03/02/07 Fri
Hi Tech -- fly on the wall, 01:19:48 03/04/07 Sun
As promised: the lowdown on the new high tech (and extremely expensive) PS shock system.
At the Tokyo auto show the breakdown of the new Honda F1 car clearly identified the vehicle was using a centrally-located independently managed (controlled from computers sitting miles away in race stations) system that allowed the racecar to act as a single proprietary unit.
The central processing systems regulated the activities of the nitrogen-assist units built into the shock system, allowing the shock itself to be nothing more than a constantly adjusted 4-way valve.
The cost of the F1 computer system is astronomical. However, the cost of the actual F1 shock (currently about $10k) is contained in simple materials being constructed into a valve/canister configuration.
In NHRA, it would be illegal for a team to run centrally operated computer systems that monitor and adjust shock functions (a form of traction control).
So to fit the "gray" area of NHRA, the cost of construction for a batch of shocks, self contained and individually monitored, including R&D, could (and does) run in the range of $100,000 quite easily.
Specifically, the cost of having to create multiple versions of the boards and firmware to go with the shocks themselves could increase the cost dramatically, whereas F1 does not have this limitation.
The cost of an self-contained dampening system that is individually computerized, is much more expensive than the costs of an F1 shock which is controlled through the ultra expensive central computer system.
Not to worry, the NHRA last week outlawed this most recent technology (at least for drag racing) and it will probably be a while before we see a set in TPSA.......LOL
[ Post a Reply to this Message ][Edit]
Heard Don Holcomb got himself some of those new Magneto-rheological- responsive Shocks for the back of his race car. They are supposed to detect tire shake before it happens and compensate real time as the car leaves the line. No more tire shake perfect launch every time... Must be nice!!! --
Hi -Tech, 16:53:53 03/01/07 Thu
[ Post a Reply to this Message ][Edit]
Replies:
Ask Greg and Jason about 'em....LOL. $60k EACH, that's right, not $60K a pair!
NHRA's already outlawed them so another "Black" rule is in the books.... (NT) --
wannabe, 17:28:16 03/01/07 Thu
I guess there will be no more whining from him about having an out of date old car. (NT) --
He just stepped up to the "high dollar car" catagory, 21:21:45 03/01/07 Thu
Are sure you meant $60K ?
That is $60,000 per shock.!!! Is the decimal in the right place? (NT) -- Most cars don't cost that much!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, 08:04:13 03/02/07 Fri
Hahaha...... Maybe not the car, but the some of these new TPSA motors are coming pretty close! (NT) --
Tellin'it like it is!, 09:22:40 03/02/07 Fri
to be precise Team Black paid $52k EACH......
that makes a pair of shocks and controllers a 6 figure investment! I've got some particulars that I'll post when I get time. (NT) -- PS..NHRA has already outlawed them. The technology came from the F1 world, now there's a surprize.....
.DH, 13:34:23 03/02/07 Fri
