OK, let's solve the health care issue.

[CamKing]

I think I need to get a bunch of campain shirts made.

Buck Ofama 2012

[Stan Weiss]

Never believed I would ever say this "But I am with the nuns".

Nuns in U.S. back health care bill despite Catholic bishops

Some 60 leaders of religious orders representing 59,000 Catholic nuns Wednesday sent lawmakers a letter urging them to pass the Senate health care bill

So you "PRO LIFE" people is that only before birth?

Fire suit on
Stan

[CamKing]

Nuns have never had to pay a bill or balance a budget.
Nuns also believe the US should have open borders without any restrictions.
They live in a fantasy world, just like liberals.(btw, most catholics vote Democrat)

Those of us "Pro-lifers" that understand the economics behind Obamacare, know it will hurt the quality of care for the majority of americans.

The insurance companies work on a 2-4% profit margin. For them to operate under Obama care, they will have to raise premiums and cut services. Look for $!2k a year family policies that only cover 60% of your health care costs.

Obama and his socialist dems, just f'ed this country in the arse, and 40% of americans are so stupid, they just smiled and took it.

[CamKing]

Oh, and BTW,
Those government subsidies that will help the middle class pay for their new higher cost, less coverage insurance, they don't last forever.
Unlike the skrewing we're all about to get, they go away in a few years.

[Stan Weiss]

Now I got it.

The health care bill is not about helping those that can not help themselves.

It is about economics and looking at your on pockets.

Thanks for making that clear.


How many of those Nuns that "They live in a fantasy world" also work in ER's and see what is happening in the real world?

Stan

[1989TransAm]

"The health care bill is not about helping those that can not help themselves."

You are right Stan but not for the reasons you think. If the Democrats were worried about the average Joe they would be working on putting people back to work. They are doing anything but. Expect 9-10% unemployment to be the norm while Obama is in office. The segment that will be growing the most will be government. By the way the vote against the health-care bill was bipartisan and the vote for was partisan with a lot of bribery and arm twisting.

[CamKing]

Now I got it.

No, you're not even close.

There is 12 million Americans without health insurance. ObamaCare is going to reduce the standard of care of the other 290 million, to give this newly reduced standard of care to the 12 million, even though, a majority of those 12 million don't want to pay for health care. For a much smaller cost, we could have filled in the holes in Medicare and medicaid that these 12 million slipped through, but this wasn't really about helping those 12 million. It's always been about the socialist control of our medical care services. The only thing you "Got", was from Obama bending you over.

When the subsidies run out for the middle class, so many people will just pay the fine, and go without insurance until something bad happens, and then the insurance company will have to take them. Within a few years of this, the insurance companies will die, and the government will have to step in, and take control of the whole system.
Presto!!, we're Canada.

So you may not have "Got it", but just wait. Thanks to people like you, we are all going to get it.

[Stan Weiss]

we could have filled in the holes in Medicare and medicaid

Yes some Republicans were for this.

Oh, wait that was before it might actually get into the bill.

Than they were against it.

Business as usual just the party of NO.

Stan

[CamKing]

If the Democrats were worried about the average Joe they would be working on putting people back to work.

100% correct.
I have been looking to buy another cam grinder, so I could hire 2 more people to run it.
We've got 12% unemployment in the area, and my business is expanding faster then we can keep up.

ObamaCare has me rethinking my plans.

[1989TransAm]

"Business as usual just the party of NO"

You have that right and I proudly say that you are absolutely correct. No to the expansion of government! No to socialism! No to the government takeover of the health-care system. No to the take over of private enterprise.

I think the party of no is the Democrats. No to offshore oil drilling. No to nuclear power. No to clean coal. No to carbon fuels. No to the reduction of taxes.

By the way Stan now that the bill has passed we can find out what is in it according to Nancy Pelosi.

[CamKing]

By the way Stan now that the bill has passed we can find out what is in it according to Nancy Pelosi.

I can tell you what's not in it.
Nothing to reduce the cost of health care.
Nothing that will reduce a Doctor's extremely high Malpractice insurance costs.
Nothing that will reduce the cost insurance companies will have to pay for patiant care.
Nothing that will reduce the cost of medications.
Nothing that will reduce the cost of rediculous lawsuits.
Nothing that will give americans a choice.
Nothing that will give doctors a reason to practice medicine.
Nothing that will draw the top doctors in the world to the US.
Nothing that will make our health system run better.
Nothing that'll save the states from Bankruptcy, due to having to fund this bill.
Nothing that is allowed in the US Constitution.

[CamKing]

One other thing that's not in this bill.
A way to keep all the trauma units from closing.

Just look at SoCal, for an idea of what this whole country will see with this bill.
Trauma units aren't cheap, and the added cost to all the states for ObamaCare, will make keeping them open, unrealistic.

Trauma units, and Life Flights will be a thig of the past. Just too expensive for Obamacare.

[enigma57]

"The health care bill is not about helping those that can not help themselves."

You are right Stan but not for the reasons you think. If the Democrats were worried about the average Joe they would be working on putting people back to work. They are doing anything but. Expect 9-10% unemployment to be the norm while Obama is in office. The segment that will be growing the most will be government. By the way the vote against the health-care bill was bipartisan and the vote for was partisan with a lot of bribery and arm twisting.

TransAm, I had a close friend of blessed memory who was a rabbi. I asked him many years ago why so many of our co-religionists who are well studied in scripture embrace liberal causes, as this runs counter to the guiding principles laid down in scripture.

He immediately went into his spiel and began recounting European and American history from the mid-1800s through the first couple of decades into the 1900s and notions brought with them by new immigrants to America with regard to why many Jews feel obligated to support liberal political causes even though most of them are aware that this is not in their own best interests as small business owners (history we both knew like the backs of our hands) and then he abruptly paused and looked me in the eye and said, "OK, that's for polite company...... I'll tell you. There are two types of Jews...... Those who think that Torah is about 'social justice'...... And those who can read (and understand) Hebrew!"

On reflection, I believe the same can be said of those of other faiths who are well meaning, but miss the mark when it comes to really understanding what scripture tells us about how we should conduct our lives...... And the guiding principles that our nation's founding fathers borrowed from scripture and incorporated into our Constitution.

My Christian friends have a saying...... "The road to hell is paved with good intentions". As I watch recent events unfold and wonder how so many otherwise intelligent, though perhaps misinformed people can enthusiastically support the framework of socialism so thinly cloaked in the guise of this administration's so-called 'health care reform' initiative...... I am beginning to see now why they say that.

Just my dos centavos,

Harry

[enigma57]

Regarding the Health Care Reform Bill (imposition of socialized medicine in America)......

FYI...... The final House vote tally Sunday, 21 March, 2010 (there was no final vote in the Senate...... Yes, that is clearly unconstitutional...... Remember these folks when you go to the polls in 2010, 2012, 2014, 2016...... ad finitum......)

ALABAMA
Democrats -- Bright, N; Davis, N.
Republicans -- Aderholt, N; Bachus, N; Bonner, N; Griffith, N; Rogers, N.

ALASKA
Republicans -- Young, N.

ARIZONA
Democrats -- Giffords, Y; Grijalva, Y; Kirkpatrick, Y; Mitchell, Y; Pastor, Y.
Republicans -- Flake, N; Franks, N; Shadegg, N.

ARKANSAS
Democrats -- Berry, N; Ross, N; Snyder, Y.
Republicans -- Boozman, N.

CALIFORNIA
Democrats -- Baca, Y; Becerra, Y; Berman, Y; Capps, Y; Cardoza, Y; Chu, Y; Costa, Y; Davis, Y; Eshoo, Y; Farr, Y; Filner, Y; Garamendi, Y; Harman, Y; Honda, Y; Lee, Y; Lofgren, Zoe, Y; Matsui, Y; McNerney, Y; Miller, George, Y; Napolitano, Y; Pelosi, Y; Richardson, Y; Roybal-Allard, Y; Sanchez, Linda T., Y; Sanchez, Loretta, Y; Schiff, Y; Sherman, Y; Speier, Y; Stark, Y; Thompson, Y; Waters, Y; Watson, Y; Waxman, Y; Woolsey, Y.
Republicans -- Bilbray, N; Bono Mack, N; Calvert, N; Campbell, N; Dreier, N; Gallegly, N; Herger, N; Hunter, N; Issa, N; Lewis, N; Lungren, Daniel E., N; McCarthy, N; McClintock, N; McKeon, N; Miller, Gary, N; Nunes, N; Radanovich, N; Rohrabacher, N; Royce, N.

COLORADO
Democrats -- DeGette, Y; Markey, Y; Perlmutter, Y; Polis, Y; Salazar, Y.
Republicans -- Coffman, N; Lamborn, N.

CONNECTICUT
Democrats -- Courtney, Y; DeLauro, Y; Himes, Y; Larson, Y; Murphy, Y.

DELAWARE
Republicans -- Castle, N.

FLORIDA
Democrats -- Boyd, Y; Brown, Corrine, Y; Castor, Y; Grayson, Y; Hastings, Y; Klein, Y; Kosmas, Y; Meek, Y; Wasserman Schultz, Y.
Republicans -- Bilirakis, N; Brown-Waite, Ginny, N; Buchanan, N; Crenshaw, N; Diaz-Balart, L., N; Diaz-Balart, M., N; Mack, N; Mica, N; Miller, N; Posey, N; Putnam, N; Rooney, N; Ros-Lehtinen, N; Stearns, N; Young, N.

GEORGIA
Democrats -- Barrow, N; Bishop, Y; Johnson, Y; Lewis, Y; Marshall, N; Scott, Y.
Republicans -- Broun, N; Deal, N; Gingrey, N; Kingston, N; Linder, N; Price, N; Westmoreland, N.

HAWAII
Democrats -- Hirono, Y.

IDAHO
Democrats -- Minnick, N.
Republicans -- Simpson, N.

ILLINOIS
Democrats -- Bean, Y; Costello, Y; Davis, Y; Foster, Y; Gutierrez, Y; Halvorson, Y; Hare, Y; Jackson, Y; Lipinski, N; Quigley, Y; Rush, Y; Schakowsky, Y.
Republicans -- Biggert, N; Johnson, N; Kirk, N; Manzullo, N; Roskam, N; Schock, N; Shimkus, N.

INDIANA
Democrats -- Carson, Y; Donnelly, Y; Ellsworth, Y; Hill, Y; Visclosky, Y.
Republicans -- Burton, N; Buyer, N; Pence, N; Souder, N.

IOWA
Democrats -- Boswell, Y; Braley, Y; Loebsack, Y.
Republicans -- King, N; Latham, N.

KANSAS
Democrats -- Moore, Y.
Republicans -- Jenkins, N; Moran, N; Tiahrt, N.

KENTUCKY
Democrats -- Chandler, N; Yarmuth, Y.
Republicans -- Davis, N; Guthrie, N; Rogers, N; Whitfield, N.

LOUISIANA
Democrats -- Melancon, N.
Republicans -- Alexander, N; Boustany, N; Cao, N; Cassidy, N; Fleming, N; Scalise, N.

MAINE
Democrats -- Michaud, Y; Pingree, Y.

MARYLAND
Democrats -- Cummings, Y; Edwards, Y; Hoyer, Y; Kratovil, N; Ruppersberger, Y; Sarbanes, Y; Van Hollen, Y.
Republicans -- Bartlett, N.

MASSACHUSETTS
Democrats -- Capuano, Y; Delahunt, Y; Frank, Y; Lynch, N; Markey, Y; McGovern, Y; Neal, Y; Olver, Y; Tierney, Y; Tsongas, Y.

MICHIGAN
Democrats -- Conyers, Y; Dingell, Y; Kildee, Y; Kilpatrick, Y; Levin, Y; Peters, Y; Schauer, Y; Stupak, Y.
Republicans -- Camp, N; Ehlers, N; Hoekstra, N; McCotter, N; Miller, N; Rogers, N; Upton, N.

MINNESOTA
Democrats -- Ellison, Y; McCollum, Y; Oberstar, Y; Peterson, N; Walz, Y.
Republicans -- Bachmann, N; Kline, N; Paulsen, N.

MISSISSIPPI
Democrats -- Childers, N; Taylor, N; Thompson, Y.
Republicans -- Harper, N.

MISSOURI
Democrats -- Carnahan, Y; Clay, Y; Cleaver, Y; Skelton, N.
Republicans -- Akin, N; Blunt, N; Emerson, N; Graves, N; Luetkemeyer, N.

MONTANA
Republicans -- Rehberg, N.

NEBRASKA
Republicans -- Fortenberry, N; Smith, N; Terry, N.

NEVADA
Democrats -- Berkley, Y; Titus, Y.
Republicans -- Heller, N.

NEW HAMPSHIRE
Democrats -- Hodes, Y; Shea-Porter, Y.

NEW JERSEY
Democrats -- Adler, N; Andrews, Y; Holt, Y; Pallone, Y; Pascrell, Y; Payne, Y; Rothman, Y; Sires, Y.
Republicans -- Frelinghuysen, N; Garrett, N; Lance, N; LoBiondo, N; Smith, N.

NEW MEXICO
Democrats -- Heinrich, Y; Lujan, Y; Teague, N.

NEW YORK
Democrats -- Ackerman, Y; Arcuri, N; Bishop, Y; Clarke, Y; Crowley, Y; Engel, Y; Hall, Y; Higgins, Y; Hinchey, Y; Israel, Y; Lowey, Y; Maffei, Y; Maloney, Y; McCarthy, Y; McMahon, N; Meeks, Y; Murphy, Y; Nadler, Y; Owens, Y; Rangel, Y; Serrano, Y; Slaughter, Y; Tonko, Y; Towns, Y; Velazquez, Y; Weiner, Y.
Republicans -- King, N; Lee, N.

NORTH CAROLINA
Democrats -- Butterfield, Y; Etheridge, Y; Kissell, N; McIntyre, N; Miller, Y; Price, Y; Shuler, N; Watt, Y.
Republicans -- Coble, N; Foxx, N; Jones, N; McHenry, N; Myrick, N.

NORTH DAKOTA
Democrats -- Pomeroy, Y.

OHIO
Democrats -- Boccieri, Y; Driehaus, Y; Fudge, Y; Kaptur, Y; Kilroy, Y; Kucinich, Y; Ryan, Y; Space, N; Sutton, Y; Wilson, Y.
Republicans -- Austria, N; Boehner, N; Jordan, N; LaTourette, N; Latta, N; Schmidt, N; Tiberi, N; Turner, N.

OKLAHOMA
Democrats -- Boren, N.
Republicans -- Cole, N; Fallin, N; Lucas, N; Sullivan, N.

OREGON
Democrats -- Blumenauer, Y; DeFazio, Y; Schrader, Y; Wu, Y.
Republicans -- Walden, N.

PENNSYLVANIA
Democrats -- Altmire, N; Brady, Y; Carney, Y; Dahlkemper, Y; Doyle, Y; Fattah, Y; Holden, N; Kanjorski, Y; Murphy, Patrick, Y; Schwartz, Y; Sestak, Y.
Republicans -- Dent, N; Gerlach, N; Murphy, Tim, N; Pitts, N; Platts, N; Shuster, N; Thompson, N.

RHODE ISLAND
Democrats -- Kennedy, Y; Langevin, Y.

SOUTH CAROLINA
Democrats -- Clyburn, Y; Spratt, Y.
Republicans -- Barrett, N; Brown, N; Inglis, N; Wilson, N.

SOUTH DAKOTA
Democrats -- Herseth Sandlin, N.

TENNESSEE
Democrats -- Cohen, Y; Cooper, Y; Davis, N; Gordon, Y; Tanner, N.
Republicans -- Blackburn, N; Duncan, N; Roe, N; Wamp, N.

TEXAS
Democrats -- Cuellar, Y; Doggett, Y; Edwards, N; Gonzalez, Y; Green, Al, Y; Green, Gene, Y; Hinojosa, Y; Jackson Lee, Y; Johnson, E. B., Y; Ortiz, Y; Reyes, Y; Rodriguez, Y.
Republicans -- Barton, N; Brady, N; Burgess, N; Carter, N; Conaway, N; Culberson, N; Gohmert, N; Granger, N; Hall, N; Hensarling, N; Johnson, Sam, N; Marchant, N; McCaul, N; Neugebauer, N; Olson, N; Paul, N; Poe, N; Sessions, N; Smith, N; Thornberry, N.

UTAH
Democrats -- Matheson, N.
Republicans -- Bishop, N; Chaffetz, N.

VERMONT
Democrats -- Welch, Y.

VIRGINIA
Democrats -- Boucher, N; Connolly, Y; Moran, Y; Nye, N; Perriello, Y; Scott, Y.
Republicans -- Cantor, N; Forbes, N; Goodlatte, N; Wittman, N; Wolf, N.

WASHINGTON
Democrats -- Baird, Y; Dicks, Y; Inslee, Y; Larsen, Y; McDermott, Y; Smith, Y.
Republicans -- Hastings, N; McMorris Rodgers, N; Reichert, N.

WEST VIRGINIA
Democrats -- Mollohan, Y; Rahall, Y.
Republicans -- Capito, N.

WISCONSIN
Democrats -- Baldwin, Y; Kagen, Y; Kind, Y; Moore, Y; Obey, Y.
Republicans -- Petri, N; Ryan, N; Sensenbrenner, N.

WYOMING
Republicans -- Lummis, N.

[1989TransAm]

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions".

Harry, that is correct. I believe people such as Stan that support the bill have good intentions. I also believe that the hierarchy of the Democrat party and others are using the health-care bill as a power play and expand the reaches of the government. Health-care represents one sixth of our economy and that is one big slush fund to play with. Can you say single payer? Can you say unionizing? That is the road paved to hell.