Sbf 157 tooth starter

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seefour
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Sbf 157 tooth starter

Post by seefour » Mon Jul 11, 2016 10:51 pm

I need some ideas. I'm stumped.
I have a sbf with a Performance automatic 157 tooth neutral balance flex plate. I counted the teeth. It is 157. Part # FXL30213. I have a P.A. Bell housing with their block plate that fits either 164 or 157 flex plate. I have the starter in the two inside holes closest to crankshaft centerline and the Bendix is barely engaging the radial axis of the flex plate. It goes deep enough front to rear. And it's making an awefull noise. Not smooth.
I have a Ford mini starter from Orielys auto . It's ultimate select part # 32281 . It's a gear reduction starter.
For the love of God is the starter wrong? Holes drilled wrong from p.a. into bell housing?

Any suggestions?
Thanks Mike
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Re: Sbf 157 tooth starter

Post by BirdMan » Tue Jul 12, 2016 10:50 am

I went to the PA site and the alum. bellhousing looks to be like my JW blowproof one. I use the 164T flex though and the outer mtg. bolts, no block plate. My first starter looked like yours and it would hit the inside of bell housing and tilt it inward toward c/l and make a hell of a noise. I ground on the nose of the starter to move it out and finally got it to be somewhat okay.

At a later date I then bought a PowerMaster 200 amp?? which only had the bendix sticking out without the support nose. Has worked beautifully since installed. I jumpered across small energizing post to battery cable post to use only the original starter solenoid on fenderwell.

I bought a higher amp for son's 412W with a JW Bellhousing as well, maybe a 250?? I don't remember at the moment. Both of them are quiet.

I only use block plates or bp spacers for converter clearance as No One makes the flexplate offset identical, even Ford original ones. I made spacers by cutting the centers out of old stock ones with the large holes in them is easier leaving on the starter part, then if I need more clearance I back off the bellhousing after removing the starter and insert spacer/spacers as needed.

I determine which starter (bendix is innie (just see end of bendix) or outie (where you see all of bendix teeth)) by measuring to ring gear from blockplate or bellhousing surface, then select which bendix position starter you need after measuring bendix to starter mounting surface. There are only two bendix positions as stated but numerous battery cable connection locations. Same bendix tooth count is used for both.
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Re: Sbf 157 tooth starter

Post by BirdMan » Tue Jul 12, 2016 10:20 pm

Have you removed the trans. and checked bellhousing with a stock Ford block plate or PA block plate to stock plate and/or bellhousing? Might the starter be tightening up at an angle and making the bendix too far away?

Do you have a normal Ford starter to try?
Dale C.

seefour
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Re: Sbf 157 tooth starter

Post by seefour » Tue Jul 12, 2016 10:49 pm

I tried a stock Ford starter tonight with 9 teeth. Wrong move....it hangs and lacks to umph to try and turn.it over. The p.a. block plate hole line up with the p.a. Bell housing. Starting to question the flex plate from P.a. I'm questioning everything. I have Cleveland heads on a dart Windsor block. The headers are tubular automotive. They fit great. Only down fall are the header bolts. It's a three hour job to get them off and three back on. Last thing I want to do.is to have to pull the trans because of something stupid. The 10 tooth does work better but making a god awefull noise. I'll mess with it again tomorrow night.
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Re: Sbf 157 tooth starter

Post by BirdMan » Wed Jul 13, 2016 5:18 am

Bummer! I am using SS 12pt header bolts now which use a 3/8" wrench. Son ran a Cleveland for years and I have built several sets of headers for our cars.

How many cubes and compression? Son's 412 is 14.3 and my 347 was 13 or so. All but the first few engines have had the 164T flywheel or flexplate and maybe with that it requires a bit less torque from starter to turn??? I wouldn't think 7 more teeth would make much difference??

You know, I don't remember counting bendix tooth count!

Starters can be a pain. I had a neighbor lady start her car, I heard it and it made a hell of a screeching noise so I visited her and she had the starter installed some time back so it made a noise for a long time?? I removed it, measured flexplate set back, then the starter and it had toe outie bendix and needed an innie which I got and it started with Any noise, very quiet and she was happy to not be making noise anymore. I'll bet the parts store/mechanic just got one for the year and didn't compare to original.

Anyway good luck!

Ps most of my headers have been 180* ones with individual tubes and slip fit collectors. My first C4 pump wasn't torqued down and while warming up at the track it quit moving. I know about removing tranny's for fun :)
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Re: Sbf 157 tooth starter

Post by seefour » Wed Jul 13, 2016 5:23 am

Dale , the motor is 427 inches 13.6 compression. It Dynod alittle over 800 hp at 7500rpm and 621 tq at 5500.
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Re: Sbf 157 tooth starter

Post by BirdMan » Wed Jul 13, 2016 6:23 pm

That is with stock iron Cleveland heads? Impressive!
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Re: Sbf 157 tooth starter

Post by seefour » Wed Jul 13, 2016 7:39 pm

No those started out as chi 218 3v out of the box
Went 9.54 at 139......with them. Had them ported and didn't like them and sent them off again and had Troy and Ford Performance Solutions and Jay Cotten port them to a port volume and cross section suitable to spin 8000 rpm on 427 inches on methanol fuel. We dynod with a set of 1 7/8 headers from school of automotive machinist in Houston Texas. My step headers would not fit the dyno. They are 1 7/8 x 2.0 x 3.5 The ultimate header would be a 2.0 x 2.125 x 2.250 18 Gage.
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Re: Sbf 157 tooth starter

Post by BirdMan » Wed Jul 13, 2016 11:07 pm

Good to hear, our sizes 1 7/8, 2, 2 1/8 into 3.5 collector. Best 9.69 @ 135 in 3150 64 Falcon with PA comp or comp+ and converter will stall at least 6m +. Normally leave at 4800 on M/T 10.5w or Hoosier 11x29. 1100 Dom on Victor/Glidden intake.
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Re: Sbf 157 tooth starter

Post by seefour » Wed Jul 13, 2016 11:16 pm

What cube is yours? The 9.54 was with the 410 inch .775-.757 266-273 108 sep 13.8 comp 4.04 x 4 x 6.0
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Re: Sbf 157 tooth starter

Post by BirdMan » Sat Jul 23, 2016 3:43 am

412 4.125x3.850 w/6.300 rods, .650/.650 lift 272/280* 110*. The valve train can handle .800 or so lift but it goes fast enough for us and same bearings 4 years now.

Do you have the problem resolved yet? Sometimes I get so pissed at a problem I have to back off for a while doing other things!
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Re: Sbf 157 tooth starter

Post by seefour » Sat Jul 23, 2016 9:32 am

I called p.a. and power master.l have a mini starter brand new. The offset is .750 I pulled the trans back out . Took flex plate to the shop and put it on the balancer . Checked run out and balance .020 at most. P.a. said that's well with in spec. Counted the teeth again. It's 157 tooth. It's dual bolt pattern for Ford 10.5 and power glide. I haven't found the exact problem.just going over everything again before stabbing trans again.
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Re: Sbf 157 tooth starter

Post by BirdMan » Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:35 pm

Can you mount the block plate, flex plate and starter, then trigger the small energizer bolt to extend the bendix and see anything? From olden days I was told not to try running the starter to turn the engine over as the flexplate would be bent? Never tried it but just triggering or extending the bendix to ascertain the engagement might work?? Bummer it is!

When I went to C4 from DNE 5 spd it was a steep learning curve. I helped a friend with his starter problem, Chevy 521 and ended up milling the top of the mounting block to get the proper engagement as it was really whinney, luckly he had an old weaker one that hat worked quietly to determine the problem.

Oh, the heads on the 412 are Victor 7721 I ported and flowed. Around 345 cfm @.650 lift (more at .800) through the carb, intake and head.
Dale C.

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Re: Sbf 157 tooth starter

Post by BCjohnny » Sun Jul 31, 2016 11:56 am

seefour .......

It's most likely an 'open nosed' starter you've bought so just offer it up and pry out the pinion with a screwdriver, with absolutely no power connected up anywhere.

Despite what many think, you should have around 10mm of pinion engagement depth with the ring gear (~3mm out of mesh plus ~13mm of pinion travel), although it's often less. I've seen as little as 6mm without noticeable issues.

You don't want the pinion too tight 'in mesh', the 'paperclip gauge' works fine with a 12/14 DP profile, so 40 thou root clearance, give or take, gets you there. Much better looser than tighter, within reason. Starter gears are cut so heavily corrected that gear machinists from other disciplines wince.

If you're still chasing your tail you may want to cut up an old scrap bellhousing to locate everything, rather than just work off of the shim plate, but make sure you pick up both dowels.

That twenty thou flexplate run out may all but disappear when bolted up to the converter, although rarely it can get worse.

Good luck.
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