Start and drive or warm up

Tech questions that don't fit above forums

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In-Tech
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Re: Start and drive or warm up

Post by In-Tech » Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:01 am

peejay wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 7:54 am
Intech: Are you looking at applications with an air pump? I can see rich mixture + air pump being used to get a light afterburner effect. .9 Lambda is nowhere near as rich as I've seen port EFI run when cold though!
Hi peejay,
It has been quite a while since I looked at the warm up strategy GM used with an air pump. I believe they discontinued using even the electric air pump ~2002 so(to me) it seems they could keep it "clean" without the bandaid of the "smog pump". I will have a look at this though, You just reminded me how I actually have to ADD fuel during warmup on the hotrod transplants I see and that might partially have to do with the air pump having been deleted from the cal. Generally ALL the aftermarket wiring harness's aren't made correctly and the injector voltage bias table has to be altered to "fix" the wiring harness issues. This and the coil dwell vs voltage. Ever notice how your stock GM vehicle have the electric fans and/or AC can cycle on and off without a droop or flare but everyone's aftermarket "tunes" almost die when anything cycles? :roll: I've said too much. :mrgreen:
Heat is energy, energy is horsepower...but you gotta control the heat.
-Carl

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Re: Start and drive or warm up

Post by peejay » Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:25 pm

Torque based engine control strategy can be a bitch sometimes can't it? Or rather the LACK of a torque based strategy!

Makes me thankful for the MS3-Pro's tables for automatic IAC increase when fan or A/C is kicked on, along with a delay so there is no "flare". Cruder than the OEM torque-based strategies, but more effective than just reacting!

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Re: Start and drive or warm up

Post by In-Tech » Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:25 am

peejay wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:25 pm
Torque based engine control strategy can be a bitch sometimes can't it? Or rather the LACK of a torque based strategy!

Makes me thankful for the MS3-Pro's tables for automatic IAC increase when fan or A/C is kicked on, along with a delay so there is no "flare". Cruder than the OEM torque-based strategies, but more effective than just reacting!
Hehe, yup, the "old school" stuff that adds IAC counts based on AC or gear/neutral works pretty good. Does MS have multiples available? Meaning (for instance) Park/Neutral to reverse is different than Park/neutral to drive because generally reverse has more pressure than drive. GM didn't fix that for a long time or maybe never since they added adaptives for all of that. A lot of things can be tuned to make transmission transients vs engine transients better. The newer trans stuff is incredibly intense and for me it seems more time consuming to tune than the engine because of the complexity. I have to charge a completely different price now for engine and trans tuning. It's a whole new world as far as tuning OEM stuff goes and I am glad I only do GM stuff. There are a lot of things to screw up in the newer 6+ speeds :lol: Watch out for that program counter in non-volatile ram if you think you can put it back to stock and get that lunched tranny thru warranty. :shock: :wink:

I've glanced at some newer aftermarket controllers that cost in the 10's of thousands of dollars and they look pretty powerful. How much can you charge for a tune? How much time can you spend for the dollar to the end user? MKE here on this site has a pretty good controller it looks BUT he also can tune and make changes to the operating system at will, not many can do that. I guarantee when he is done he will agree that it was at least $100k worth of time at MINIMUM for the EFI alone not including hardware and he will continue to tinker/make it better for years to come.

Yes, of course, you can make it close enough to get by for most applications. Just like carbs and the majority of those work pretty good when tuned. A carburetor is a beautiful piece. If calibrated close to the airflow demands of the engine it will "give it what it wants" in just about any situation. Atmospheric is the hardest for the carb, temp isn't so much because the fuel temp helps with that, hot or cold.

Anyhoosit, sorry to ramble. #-o
Heat is energy, energy is horsepower...but you gotta control the heat.
-Carl

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Re: Start and drive or warm up

Post by joe 90 » Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:44 am

Geoff2 wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 4:23 am
Where I live, I don't need a heater...

Nobody has yet mentioned "how cold".

If it's a diesel and 40 below it might not even start.


Which reminds me that when I worked in telephone exchanges, they all had standby diesel generators with built in heaters. We were told at the time it was so that they can go to full load immediately.
Where I am it never gets cold enough to worry about such things, just a couple of light frosts each year.

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Re: Start and drive or warm up

Post by Truckedup » Wed Jan 03, 2018 7:28 am

PackardV8 wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:21 pm
In fifty years of building engines and being around large fleet service, I've never seen any problems starting from cold and driving away gently until the engine is warm versus sitting idling until warm. Only those rigs which will immediately be pulling to max need to be fully warmed, i.e. a max GVW loaded truck pulling away from the dock.

FWIW, idling until the dash temp guage getting to the middle is not an indication of being ready to romp. Usually, engine oil takes twice as long to get up to operating temperature as does coolant. Oil may never warm enough at idle. It takes some load and some circulation to warm oil.

One oddity is the trans temp gauge on my Ford Super Duty. It comes up to mid-temp more quickly than does the coolant gauge.
During a bad era of big construction I worked in a school bus garage for 5 years.About 70 big buses, mostly Ford FE 361's...This is the cold Northeast...The drivers had the same bus every day unless it was in for service...The drivers were instructed to start the engines,push in the choke somwhat and use the throttle to hold a fast idle..Then check the bus and drive at a moderate speed until warmed up...The drivers who did this had less mechanical problems and the engines lasted about 100K miles ...Some drivers ignored a sensible warm up and ran the engine hard when cold, engine life was about 60-70K miles...

On the Ford gauges, I have read that Ford gauges do not show actual operating temps or oil pressure..But instead maintain a "normal" values unless there's an unusual spike up or down ...
World's fastest stock frame 650 cc push rod gas land speed racing bike...

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Re: Start and drive or warm up

Post by PackardV8 » Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:46 am

On the Ford gauges, I have read that Ford gauges do not show actual operating temps or oil pressure..But instead maintain a "normal" values unless there's an unusual spike up or down ...
Not just Ford; most modern electric gauges are an idiot light with a dial and needle. They stay at midpoint when the actual coolant temp is anywhere from 160 to approx 210. Same with oil pressure.

This dumbing down came about because the occasional customer would complain to the Service Manager, "My buddy's engine runs 5 pounds more oil pressure (or 5 degrees cooler) than mine. I want a new engine." Since there was no fix/win on that, the solution was just ask the engineers to specify the gauges built as a go/no-go indicator.
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Re: Start and drive or warm up

Post by Roundybout » Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:12 pm

Image

I let it warm up a bit.

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Re: Start and drive or warm up

Post by CharlieB53 » Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:29 am

pdq67 wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:53 pm
Cold starts.

1st. Clean all glass off outside. As well as the hood and tops of the front fenders and roof.

2nd. Start engine and let the oil pressure normalize, then idle away easy-like until she starts to warm up.

As for defrost, I learned a long time ago to run my heater on it's, "down low/floorboard", setting and let the windshield stay cold until my car was totally warm! The rising under dash heat will help keep the windshield clear. Then once warm, switch to defrost if I wanted it. Oh, and crack the drivers side window down a skosh.. And it seemed that the cheaper the car, the worse the defroster worked!

Works for me!

The main thing is to NOT beat on your cold engine regardless until it heats up!

pdq67
Growing up near the mountains of the Pacific North West and sub Zero Winter temps this is pretty much how I learned to drive.

Clear the windows, start it up, once the engine gets just enough heat in it for the idle to stabilize get it in gear and moving. Baby it for the first few miles.

An engine warms much faster under light load.

Only after it has fully warmed can I think about leaning into it.

Even with our newer vehicles, injected that seem to idle fine stone cold. I'll baby it for at least the first few miles, keeping it between 1500 to 2500.

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