When will racing catch up?

[Cammer]

Many running roll cages on the street think they have extra protection.

Think about it!

[Ron E]

Many running roll cages on the street think they have extra protection.

Think about it!

Without a helmet, a cage is hard to beat for head trauma

[Brian P]

I would dispute that to a point. Safety in racing considers not only the vehicle but also the track, the surroundings, the way the event is run, etc.

Things are not always what they seem to be or what we were told they would be.

A study on race car safety, commissioned by the FIA, revealed that a major cause of driver injury was due to helmets. The weight of the helmet, multiplied by the force at impact, tries to pull your head off of your shoulders and results in severe neck injuries.

Similarly, effective seat belts caused spinal compression injuries.
Roll cages were acceptable in soft lateral rolls but almost useless in end over end rolls and upside down pancake landings.

There is no reason that air bags could not be sequentially triggered, or progressively triggered by force of impact. Crash proof, hardened, driver cages have increased the incidence of brain damage due to impact forces of the brain against the skull.

The list goes on and on. It is only when science is used to examine folk lore and conventional wisdom that we gain insight and make progress.

You're right, of course, but it would be a BIG mistake to consider that safety systems for street driven vehicles will directly transfer over to racing.

Hardened driver cages may have increased incidence of certain injuries, but how many of those drivers would have been dead without said cage.

Helmets may cause neck injuries in some situations, but how many riders/drivers would be dead without one. (I'm under the impression that the Hans device is supposed to restrict head movement in order to at least partially address this.)

I AGREE that we can not stop analyzing and improving, and I AGREE that sometimes things are not as they appear, but to say that there has been no progress (and no transfer of technology between racing and street) in the last 40 years or whatever is utter nonsense. And it would be a mistake to transfer EVERYTHING from a street vehicle to a race car and blow away all that's been learned about building race cars - and vice versa.

[iadr]

I looked at the yellow car. This was a foul handling POS. The driver may or may not be good enough. If he came in and didn't say anything about severe under steer and lack of side bite, I'd dump him after seeing front tires and reading Pyrometer. That may be fast for one lap. The first lap, trouble is race is won on the last lap. I can tell how well the car is handling by how bad the driver is sweating when he comes in. Nothing easier than winning and nothing harder than trying but can't.

exactly. If that's an example of great driving, then breaking a wine glass must be the ultimate gauge of fine singing... Terrific skill (reflexes of an insect) required, yes... But...

Not sure either of the other two cars were going that much slower than they could be. The hemi Challenger looks that way, but that was Phil Curran- noted driver, and they are instrumenting the heck out of it. Maybe the acceleration makes the corners look slow?

[Ron E]

Not sure either of the other two cars were going that much slower than they could be. The hemi Challenger looks that way, but that was Phil Curran- noted driver, and they are instrumenting the heck out of it. Maybe the acceleration makes the corners look slow?

Maybe he was getting a rood run out of the corners. All the passes he made sure looked effortless. What ever it was, something was working for the guy.

[MadBill]

There is a wonderful video called, "Yellow Bird", with footage of a Ruf Porsche being driven around the Nurburgring. From the helicopter view the car appears as smooth as glass. But the camera focused on the driver shows just how hard and furious he is working to keep the car at the limit. Limit driving is not smooth at all.

David, I am a day or two late in finding time to reply. I am going to say this will be my version of the stereotype "conventional wisdom" belief.

I imagine you are refering to this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxLudkJwx6A

For the first few seconds, I thought, "what a hack", then began to acknowledge the speed at which it was happening. Bottom line is that the driver is catching/saving a car which is badly set up.
There is essentially no difference between that video and either of these:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XRXuiru_GI
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid= ... &plindex=8

An unstable car and sawing at the wheel are a bad combination.


FWIW, here are a couple that seem to be combining a well set up car with a great driver.

//edit first one seems to have been removed. In it's place I will post what I think is my all time favorite road race vid:

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=glennbunch
Back on topic, here's a nice smooth drive. Effective, too.

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid= ... &plindex=0

My read from the footage is that the car may or may not have handling issues, but the driver is deliberately provoking 90% of the twitches, perhaps just exulting in its huge, tire burning power, with which he is ...burning the tires. He's half racing, half drifting and the rears are cooked before the lap is complete.

[Metrobilly]

I just came upon this interesting discussion. I road race in the lowest level of SCCA and have enjoyed a fair bit of success with a very modest operation. I don't think I could drive a car in the manner that the yellow car was driven. I'm far to conditioned for smoothness.

Dave, one thing that I have observed in my in car video is a quick steering wheel movement when at the limit of adhesion in a more or less steady state turn. It dosent' happen if i'm not driving hard. The movement results in almost no change in the cars direction or attitude. It seems to me that it is important to move the wheel a little in order to feel what the tires are doing as I chase after the best slip angle. Is that part of jagged limit you are referring to?

At my level of the sport any organized R&D and testing program is a huge advantage. Few do it.

The VIR video is great. I love that place.

[Bubstr]

I just came upon this interesting discussion. I road race in the lowest level of SCCA and have enjoyed a fair bit of success with a very modest operation. I don't think I could drive a car in the manner that the yellow car was driven. I'm far to conditioned for smoothness.

Dave, one thing that I have observed in my in car video is a quick steering wheel movement when at the limit of adhesion in a more or less steady state turn. It dosent' happen if i'm not driving hard. The movement results in almost no change in the cars direction or attitude. It seems to me that it is important to move the wheel a little in order to feel what the tires are doing as I chase after the best slip angle. Is that part of jagged limit you are referring to?

At my level of the sport any organized R&D and testing program is a huge advantage. Few do it.

The VIR video is great. I love that place.

The quick correction on the wheel is important,because it transfers weight front to back with the kingpin inclination and caster , shifting it to rear then back to front and gives you feed back for balance. I'm betting you don't do this every corner or your slip angle will keep decreasing from tire heat. Most set a car up to manage the coarse well over all then fine tune the so called money maker corners. These are corners that effect a pass. Even if they lose some speed on other corners. they are corners that you can out brake and take preferred line on exit or a turn before a straight away, that if you carry a few extra mph you can draft a pass on the straight. Everyone says look at horsepower, but it was 5 or 10 mph faster in the last corner.

It has always been and will always be, Corner speed is king and smooth is fast. If you know this and understand it you can be a good racer.

[Ron E]

Everyone says look at horsepower, but it was 5 or 10 mph faster in the last corner.

It has always been and will always be, Corner speed is king and smooth is fast. If you know this and understand it you can be a good racer.

Years back I did some work for several LMS teams. ( extremely inlet restricted )
These were around 350 HP motors stuck in very capable chassis
(chassis'?, chassis's ?, chass-I ?,). When a car had the set-up dead nuts, you'd swear it had an extra 200 HP. When the set-up was off, John Force's motor couldn't save you.

That corner speed is everything.

[David Redszus]

Dave, one thing that I have observed in my in car video is a quick steering wheel movement when at the limit of adhesion in a more or less steady state turn. It dosent' happen if i'm not driving hard. The movement results in almost no change in the cars direction or attitude. It seems to me that it is important to move the wheel a little in order to feel what the tires are doing as I chase after the best slip angle. Is that part of jagged limit you are referring to?

Bingo.
Years ago I had the opportunity to ride in a Porsche driven by a factory test driver at the Wiesach test track. I noticed that he was driving far from what I had been teaching about smoothness. His hands were never at rest, they were constantly in motion. Afterwards, I asked about what I had observed.

The answer amazed me. Here is a short recap.
Any driver, even the most talented has a finite event recognition and response time. The vehicle also has a finite response time to adapt to compliances and loadings. The grip limit is not smooth, but is very irregular and unpredictable. When the grip limit is exceeded, it takes a certain amount of time for the driver to recognize this event, more time to mentally process the information, more time to physically respond, and even more time for the car to react. If we add the time together, and consider that at 160 mph we are moving at 234 feet per second, a total response time of just .75 sec would mean the car has moved 176 ft. Considering we are on a road course and not at Bonneville, this would restrict just how close to the grip limit the car can be driven.

So the Porsche test drivers had developed a technique called "whisker steer", named after the whiskers of a cat as it moves around objects in the dark. As the grip limit is approached, the driver would input a small, quick movement of the steering wheel. Some would call it sawing the wheel but it is more like microsawing. The tactile response of the wheel to the driver would tell him when the grip limit is exceed, rather than wait for a grip limit signal through other sensory means. The driver could then begin immediate corrective action, either steering or throttle, since he is aware of the change in grip much earlier.

When the vehicle grip limit is approached, either end of the car may reach the limit first. This is called grip balance. The front of the car is controlled by the steering wheel, while the rear is controlled by the throttle. The rapid oscillation of steering and throttle inputs is what is necessary to keep the vehicle balanced as the grip limit constantly changes.

A well prepared car is neither understeer, oversteer or neutral; it is all three at the same time, depending on the track situation and how it is driven. Micro steering inputs have no effect on weight transfer; nor does throttle balance. But they have a significant effect on the management of slip angles. As a tire loses grip, the slip angle increases. Increased slip angle produces increased tire surface temperature, and the iterative cycle begins. Infra red tire temperature measurments while the car is on the track show these effects quite clearly. Tire temps in the pits are almost useless since they are carcass temps, not surface temps.

Any car that is driven at the grip limit cannot be driven smoothly, since the limit is not smooth. Smoothness is only possible when the car is driven well below the grip limit; as most cars are. Video is almost useless as a driver training or evaluation technique but it does provide some entertainment value.

What is really necessary is an on-board data collection system that can measure lateral and longitudinal acceleration very accurately. The need for accuracy disqualifies GPS systems as being too slow and therefore quite inaccurate. When vehicle dynamics are analyzed (shock velocities, tire acceleration, spring compression, steer angles, throttle position, etc.) along with segment times from each corner entry, mid and exit, as well as straights, a clear picture emerges as to what is really happening. And it usually does not match what the driver says is happening.

Line analysis, curve radius analysis and vector Gsum indicate that no driver is really consistent, even though the lap times might be very, very similar. Lap times are merely the sum of all other event segments; the segments might vary, but will sum about the same. A very good driver can put the best segments together in a single lap, as ofen as possible.

When I asked who was the fastest driver Porsche had ever seen at their test track, they mentioned the name of a test engineer. I had expected to hear a big name race driver. When I asked why Herr Mueller, being so quick and talented wasn't driving a race car for the factory, I was told "he is much too valuable to us as a test engineer and we cannot permit him to go racing."

I was shocked to hear this. Not what I expected. But as I thought about it, it made sense. Herr Mueller was a real racer, not merely a race car driver.

[Metrobilly]

Dave, thats a great description of my observation. It's a little hard to put into words what a driver is doing or feeling, or thinks he's feeling.

I went to your website and see your a data acquisition and driver coach guy. Interesting to hear your comments on the limitations of GPS based systems. I have never used one. A good friend of mine has an electronic genius who wires his cars with a home built system and he has become pretty good at analyzing the data, at least at Summit Point my home track. I have so far been unable to talk him into putting his set up in my car. It seems like the time it takes to read the data would make it difficult for a one man teem (like me) to keep up with it. I thought the GPS based track mapping would make the data much easier and faster to digest. I'm very sure that currently my car is better then it's driver, but it's really hard to get the driver to do any better. Seat time helps. I've been wondering about the new low cost data acquisition systems.

In regard to your original question, I think the quality of racing does not correlate well with the level of technology or cost of the race cars. A good Spec Miata race can be more exciting and action filled than Formula 1.

To follow up on your assessment of racing video, here is VIR from another perspective. There is a brief glimpse of my Black and Red Volvo flashing by at 38 seconds into it using rapid hand movement and some dirt track techniques.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rih1tU-1NCE

Charlie

[n2xlr8n]

I was impressed by the "Yellow Bird" vid because of two reasons:

1) Regardless of the car's setup, he was driving it (besides the drifting burnouts) fast around the track...I'd like to know his lap time. I certainly couldn't do better.

2) His throttle control was very good.

David...touche'. I'll concede that "smooth/fast" driving is made of tiny iterations of throttle and steering input.

I'd like to know what those inputs produce wrt data from the chassis, though

Steve

[hotrod]

The book "Going Faster" from the Skip Barber school has an interesting section in Chapter 8 on finding lap times called "where the time goes". They walk the reader through comparison lap data from one of their instructors and a student in the same car on the same day at the same track. The difference in their lap times is 2 seconds per lap but much of the time on the track the two drivers had identical corner exit speeds, and segment times. It turned out that the student driver was giving up about 0.3 seconds on several corners by over slowing on corner entry but his corner exit speeds were almost identical to the instructor driver.

In general the really fast drivers just stay closer to the edge all the time, they usually do not go that much faster in any segment, but simply do not go slow as much as the slower drivers.

I find it useful to keep that concept in mind by saying "the key to being quick is not to go faster but to avoid going slow".

By framing it that way, you think differently about where to put your efforts to improve your times. Instead becoming over agressive and blowing a lap by trying to push the car to go faster than it is capable you focus on all the little ways you give up time. It is just as relevant to the drag strip as it is to a circuit course. A drag car spends a surprising amount of time coasting during shifts when an inexperienced driver it at the wheel. Simply by focusing on quick clean shifts the driver can cut some serious time off his ET.

Larry

[David Redszus]

I'd like to know what those inputs produce wrt data from the chassis, though.

Using reasonably priced (not the low cost junk) data systems can produce a wealth of really useful information regarding the vehicle and how it is being driven. It is now possible to examine a drivers data file, from a thousand miles away, and accurately correct his driving mistakes and make suggestions for improvement. The very good drivers do this, the bad drivers.....well, are bad drivers.

When we analyze a driver/vehicle performance, we rarely look at vehicle speed, except at the lowest speeds in the corners. Maximum speed is virtually meaningless, but a great bragging point.

Using a throttle positon sensor, steering angle sensor, speed sensor and linear and lateral accelerometers, and by writing a number of mathematically derived virtual channels, some revealing insight is obtained.

The lateral G force curve is smooth when the car is below the limit, very ragged at the limit. The steering angle is smooth at sublimit and very active at the traction limit.

Using the same data steams, we can determine what curve radius was driven, each lap, each corner and overlay them. We can view the understeer, neutral and oversteer characteristics and the driver response to each vehicle signal. We can see which corners the driver has "mastered" and which need a lot of work.

We can see how well he shifted gears, finessed the clutch, matched revs, his braking inputs and actual brake bias. We can tell if he is really using the brakes or braking much too early. We can tell if the shocks are proper for the spring rates and track surface.

And much, much more. About engine, suspension, aerodynamics, etc.
Today, even at the club racer level, a driver without data collection might as well put his helmet on backwards.