FrankenFerrari engine

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Re: FrankenFerrari engine

Post by BrazilianZ28Camaro » Fri Mar 06, 2015 7:38 pm

mk e wrote:
Until I posted this I'd pretty much forgotten all about the trans disasters.....funny because I'm honestly terrified about what a 900hp V12 is going to do to a trans designed for a 235hp V8 and I should have already learned this lesson :shock:

That won't be a problem. You already are used to the "hotrod is never finished theory".

Would be a good idea order now straight cut gears.

:lol:

Cool stories there!!
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Re: FrankenFerrari engine

Post by mk e » Fri Mar 06, 2015 8:16 pm

BrazilianZ28Camaro wrote:
mk e wrote:
Until I posted this I'd pretty much forgotten all about the trans disasters.....funny because I'm honestly terrified about what a 900hp V12 is going to do to a trans designed for a 235hp V8 and I should have already learned this lesson :shock:

That won't be a problem. You already are used to the "hotrod is never finished theory".

Would be a good idea order now straight cut gears.

:lol:

Cool stories there!!

Now that you mention it I would very much like a sequential gearbox.....hmmmm :lol:
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Re: FrankenFerrari engine

Post by mk e » Mon Mar 09, 2015 3:10 pm

The pedal box came out nice I think with the pedals back where they belong, and the Porsche throttle pedal senors seems good.

I added an adjustable pedal stop to the clutch that kind of shows in 1 pic....tilton says the hydraulic throwout needs that to prevent clutch damage and I really don't want to damage the the $5000 carbon-carbon clutch :shock:
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Re: FrankenFerrari engine

Post by mk e » Mon Mar 09, 2015 3:25 pm

Now I need something to connect the new master cylinders too and part od how all this got started 8 years ago came rushing back. At 600ish hp the car was a bit traction challenged so I decided to try the traction control option in the M800 ecu...but that meant adding wheel speed sensors and might as well upgrade the brakes.

Fast forward and I have a set of ferrari F430 brakes I scored on ebay for $800 but I still need some way to do wheel speed...I'll make something.

An now I've replaced the M800 with an M150 which just isn't going to fit under the dash where the M800 lived...... :(
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Re: FrankenFerrari engine

Post by Notchback » Thu Mar 12, 2015 10:03 am

Mark, going through some of your build this morning...you have an amazing ability to make things look as though they were cast as one entire piece when in fact they are not. This is not something I am use to seeing. You have some amazing fabrication skills!

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Re: FrankenFerrari engine

Post by mk e » Fri Mar 13, 2015 2:49 pm

Notchback wrote:Mark, going through some of your build this morning...you have an amazing ability to make things look as though they were cast as one entire piece when in fact they are not. This is not something I am use to seeing. You have some amazing fabrication skills!
Thanks. I started trying to do parts this way 15 years ago when I got the ferrari. There is a huge amount of pressure for cars to be original and "perfect" which just ain't me...so I started trying to see what I could hide under the "yeah, I guess it's a fairly rare option....." umbrella knowing that the factory will do almost anything to order if you're writing a big enough check so if it looks about right it can be pretty hard to know for sure what is original and what is not some times. I like to just play dumb and then have a good laugh latter :lol:
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Re: FrankenFerrari engine

Post by mk e » Sun Mar 15, 2015 9:23 pm

The weekend project was to turn a box-o-steel from mcmaster into wheel speed indicators/front rotor adapters. They just need the wheel stud holes and they should be good to go. I went with a 30 tooth pattern because it seemed to fit well and gave me teeth most hall/VR sensors are pretty happy with.

I generally use Hall for wheel speeds because it just connects directly to a digital input, but the new ecu appears to be able to accept a VR on any digital input channel and it gives you a table to set the trigger voltage....kind of cool and way more controlled than standard VR adapters. The crank/cam work the same way, I'm using VR for those so that will be interesting to play with, but I have halls for the wheels so I'll just use them I guess.

The sensors will mount in the caliper brackets...I need to make those next.

I need to start laying out the wiring harness soon too.....there are a lot of things I'm either planning for or I've been thinking I'd like to try so I really need to write it all down so I know how many wires I need to run.
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Re: FrankenFerrari engine

Post by BrazilianZ28Camaro » Sun Mar 15, 2015 9:37 pm

Did you thought about the first drive around the block with your car?

Each pedal you step in will bring a looong mental check list. Pretty fun.

Keep up the good work.
'71 Z28 Pro-Street Camaro
Pump gas -T-ram - All motor SBC 427"
3308 lbs- leaf spring/Caltrac Car
29x10.5 Hoosiers
New best 1/8 mile ET
1.45 60' / 4.12 330' / 6.38@109mph :D

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Re: FrankenFerrari engine

Post by mk e » Mon Mar 16, 2015 8:05 am

BrazilianZ28Camaro wrote:Did you thought about the first drive around the block with your car?

Each pedal you step in will bring a looong mental check list. Pretty fun.

Keep up the good work.
Each pedal step but for me it more about each and every "noise"...wait what's that? Did I remember too check the xxxx? Oh wait it's just something on the radio, never mind :)

The pre-drive check list on this this is going to be pretty long. I'm thinking I need to get the ecu powered up sooner than later so I can test everything as I install it, like these wheel speeds. This ECU has a test function for all the outputs which is nice and you can set a test rpm for fuel and spark and see them working for a little added confidence on 1st fire day.

And now you've got me thinking I should add O2 bungs to all the head tubes just in case :lol:

What scares me most is cracks in the heads. I know the intake port to coolant jacket walls are pretty thin and I did a lot of welding in the ports and there are a lot of them so a lot of opportunity for something to go wrong...and coolant flooding a cylinder wold be bad...... [-o<
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Re: FrankenFerrari engine

Post by mk e » Mon Mar 16, 2015 9:52 am

mk e wrote:
And now you've got me thinking I should add O2 bungs to all the head tubes just in case :lol:
So with this thought in my head and knowing I need to start laying out the wiring I started looking thought the ECU software/manual (the manual is built into the software) to see what's available.....it looks like the GPR firmware supports 32 analog inputs in the ECU itself, 14 O2 signals that NEED to come in over CAN, and another 12 it looks like digital input, 4 or which can be rotary switched with 8 levels then, they have a CAN PDM box with another 24 inputs and 32 outputs.

An insane amount of stuff...if you're willing to pay. These CAN boxes all cost money, lots of money, which is my big complaint with the CAN based O2 input as the only option. I'm 3/4 planning to send two O2 signals in on open analog channels but this won't let me actually use them as O2 signals, for than I need the dual channel CAN unit which cost $844 not including the )2 sensors. On that path putting 02 in each collector and each tube would be $6k in CAN controller boxes alone!....so I'm just going to tell the ECU they are something else and hook them to open analog inputs.....functioning closed loop is for amateurs anyway right? :lol:

At some point soon I need to make some hard choices and run wires.
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Re: FrankenFerrari engine

Post by PackardV8 » Mon Mar 16, 2015 4:05 pm

What scares me most is cracks in the heads. I know the intake port to coolant jacket walls are pretty thin and I did a lot of welding in the ports and there are a lot of them so a lot of opportunity for something to go wrong...and coolant flooding a cylinder wold be bad......
Don't even consider assembling and firing until you've had them thoroughly pressure tested. Even porosity could ruin your day.
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Re: FrankenFerrari engine

Post by BrazilianZ28Camaro » Mon Mar 16, 2015 5:12 pm

mk e wrote:
mk e wrote:
And now you've got me thinking I should add O2 bungs to all the head tubes just in case :lol:
So with this thought in my head and knowing I need to start laying out the wiring I started looking thought the ECU software/manual (the manual is built into the software) to see what's available.....it looks like the GPR firmware supports 32 analog inputs in the ECU itself, 14 O2 signals that NEED to come in over CAN, and another 12 it looks like digital input, 4 or which can be rotary switched with 8 levels then, they have a CAN PDM box with another 24 inputs and 32 outputs.

An insane amount of stuff...if you're willing to pay. These CAN boxes all cost money, lots of money, which is my big complaint with the CAN based O2 input as the only option. I'm 3/4 planning to send two O2 signals in on open analog channels but this won't let me actually use them as O2 signals, for than I need the dual channel CAN unit which cost $844 not including the )2 sensors. On that path putting 02 in each collector and each tube would be $6k in CAN controller boxes alone!....so I'm just going to tell the ECU they are something else and hook them to open analog inputs.....functioning closed loop is for amateurs anyway right? :lol:

At some point soon I need to make some hard choices and run wires.
:shock:

Have you considered a cheap ECU from Holley or the (Brazilian) Fuel Tech FT500? It is sequential and you can do individual cylinder corrections. It will work with V12s if memory serves me right.

You should pressure test your heads before fire the engine, may be a lot of additional work (I think they are already assembled), but the peace of mind will compensate.
'71 Z28 Pro-Street Camaro
Pump gas -T-ram - All motor SBC 427"
3308 lbs- leaf spring/Caltrac Car
29x10.5 Hoosiers
New best 1/8 mile ET
1.45 60' / 4.12 330' / 6.38@109mph :D

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Re: FrankenFerrari engine

Post by mk e » Mon Mar 16, 2015 8:12 pm

BrazilianZ28Camaro wrote:
:shock:

Have you considered a cheap ECU from Holley or the (Brazilian) Fuel Tech FT500? It is sequential and you can do individual cylinder corrections. It will work with V12s if memory serves me right.

You should pressure test your heads before fire the engine, may be a lot of additional work (I think they are already assembled), but the peace of mind will compensate.

I pressure tested it and right now it doesn't leak.....and I just hope it stays that way was all I meant. [-o<

I have an ECU that does everything I need it to do and it's very nice. There are some things I'd like that it can do but it would cost more :cry:

At some point I will almost certainly stop being so pigheaded and drop the $844 for the CAN based dual O2 to support closed loop control. I know it's more than a whole MS3 costs, but to me the motec is well worth the extra money so I'll deal with my sadness about the price.

What I'm really torn on is over what to add that I don't actually need on the open AN channels. I have the 12 channel MAP so I could look at each cylinder which would be very helpful syning the linkage but i could do it with a scope rather than the ecu easily too. Or 12/14 egts would be nice. Or 12 NBO2 would be not a ton of money and very helpful with all but WOT mixtures. Or 12 WBO2 sensors might be the most helpful but now we're talking almost $2k for something I certainly can live without but with egts I'll be in for almost $1k so 1/2 way there......if I were willing to drop another $10k I could have it all and be in data logging heaven........ #-o

I'll probably just hoop up what I have for now and run an extra 12-16 20g wires plus CAN lines for the future......probably
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Re: FrankenFerrari engine

Post by mk e » Tue Mar 17, 2015 10:42 am

Probably under the heading of easily impressed and they may have had this forever and I never noticed but I just realized when I click on "wiring" on the help tab I get a screen the tells me what pin I assigned what to when I was going through the setup. It sure makes things easy to remember when you don't need to remember :)
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Re: FrankenFerrari engine

Post by turbobaldur » Tue Mar 17, 2015 12:45 pm

I love this project. All the bespoke and modified parts. No stone left unturned. And the IO configuration page, not a Motec specific feature, every good ECU has that.

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