Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100

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Re: Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100

Post by Frankshaft » Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:24 pm

The math guys are going to beat this thread into the ground. I say this, build a car, come on out and race. You may just change your mind. Actually, if you want to win, you will for sure. Done with this thread. Carry on.

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Re: Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100

Post by Stan Weiss » Sat Nov 04, 2017 12:34 am

Sorry, while I can enter HP I always use torque to 1 or 2 decimal places and let the program calculate the HP. For this run I entered the HP.

6200 RPM
60 Foot ET = 1.1104
330 Foot ET = 3.6084
1/8 Mile ET = 5.8019
1/8 Mile MPH = 111.4105
1000 Foot ET = 7.7208
1/4 Mile ET = 9.3547
1/4 Mile MPH = 138.2802

Number of Gears Used 1/4 = 18172
Last Gear Ratio Used 1/4 = 3.1906

Number of Gears Used = 19936
Last Gear Ratio Used = 2.0527

7200 RPM
60 Foot ET = 1.1104
330 Foot ET = 3.6084
1/8 Mile ET = 5.8019
1/8 Mile MPH = 111.4107
1000 Foot ET = 7.7208
1/4 Mile ET = 9.3548
1/4 Mile MPH = 138.2804

Number of Gears Used 1/4 = 17574
Last Gear Ratio Used 1/4 = 3.7052

Number of Gears Used = 19338
Last Gear Ratio Used = 2.3838

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Re: Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100

Post by John Wallace » Sat Nov 04, 2017 8:23 am

The math guys are going to beat this thread into the ground. I say this, build a car, come on out and race. You may just change your mind. Actually, if you want to win, you will for sure. Done with this thread. Carry on.
That's why we need two 600 HP engines at different RPM peaks to see that they will run the exact same ET in the same car.

:)
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Re: Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100

Post by EngineTech1 » Sat Nov 04, 2017 8:47 am

I think a better question would be: How much HP would you be willing to trade for a higher RPM power band? Or, how much more RPM would you need to turn to make up for being down on HP, like if you had the 600 hp @6200 engine vs. a 580 hp engine, how much RPM would you need to turn to take advantage of all that gear multiplication and outrun the 600 hp engine?

I should probably say this is sarcasm incase anybody takes this seriously.
Last edited by EngineTech1 on Sat Nov 04, 2017 9:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100

Post by Stan Weiss » Sat Nov 04, 2017 9:02 am

Has anyone here ever run a CVT? The basic principal is that you are running at the set RPM. That means HP below and above that RPM (In this case peak HP RPM) does not come into play during the acceleration process.

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Re: Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100

Post by Frankshaft » Sat Nov 04, 2017 9:59 am

Stan Weiss wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2017 9:02 am
Has anyone here ever run a CVT? The basic principal is that you are running at the set RPM. That means HP below and above that RPM (In this case peak HP RPM) does not come into play during the acceleration process.

Stan
Yes, in my snowmobile.

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Re: Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100

Post by Frankshaft » Sat Nov 04, 2017 10:17 am

Frankshaft wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2017 9:59 am
Stan Weiss wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2017 9:02 am
Has anyone here ever run a CVT? The basic principal is that you are running at the set RPM. That means HP below and above that RPM (In this case peak HP RPM) does not come into play during the acceleration process.

Stan
Yes, in my snowmobile.
And your right, to have the fastest snowmobile, you want to tune your clutches to basically run right to peak rpm as quick as possible and stay there. The Rpm AGAIN comes into play. I promise you, a snowmobile with a 100hp at 6200 vs one with 100hp at 7200 rpm, the higher rpm snowmobile will be both quicker and faster.

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Re: Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100

Post by John Wallace » Sat Nov 04, 2017 10:20 am

like if you had the 600 hp @6200 engine vs. a 580 hp engine, how much RPM would you need to turn to take advantage of all that gear multiplication and outrun the 600 hp engine?
WOuldn't this be easy?

Shift the same engine at the torque peak (instead of above HP peak rpm), which usually is like 1500-2000 RPM lower?
(with equivalent less HP)

:?:
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Re: Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100

Post by VMC » Sat Nov 04, 2017 10:26 am

Mark, you sure turned this place on it's ear with this thread lol.

Several brilliant minds preaching gospel in this thread but it seems to be falling on mostly deaf ears.

When the results don't match the theory, change the theory. ;)

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Re: Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100

Post by EngineTech1 » Sat Nov 04, 2017 10:47 am

John Wallace wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2017 10:20 am
like if you had the 600 hp @6200 engine vs. a 580 hp engine, how much RPM would you need to turn to take advantage of all that gear multiplication and outrun the 600 hp engine?
WOuldn't this be easy?

Shift the same engine at the torque peak (instead of above HP peak rpm), which usually is like 1500-2000 RPM lower?
(with equivalent less HP)

:?:
No way man. You gotta take advantage of that RPM for FULL HP right? This is maximum effort right? If RPM and gear are really worth more than power then there should be some point where with enough RPM and gear you can actually overcome a power DEFICIT.
This whole thread is jacked up from the start and asking the wrong question. A better question would be, how much more RPM and gear ratio would you need to have to overcome a 40 hp deficit? Like if you had an engine that made peak power of 600hp at 6200 rpm in a perfectly set up and geared car then how much more rpm and more gear would you need to make that same car run the same or faster with an engine that made 560 hp? 9000 rpm? 10,000 rpm?

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Re: Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100

Post by Stan Weiss » Sat Nov 04, 2017 10:55 am

digger wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 9:11 pm

the numbers look the same within 3-4 significant figures.... :wink: also using a finite number of gears as opposed to infinite number might have something to do with the differences in the program output. you know discretization of data...
Yes, I am using a finite number of gears as opposed to an infinite number and that finite number is not the same for both engines. I am using 17 to 18 thousand gear ratios for the 1/4 mile. Each simulation takes 4 to 5 seconds to run. If I increased the number of gear changes by 10 or 100 or 1000 times that would change the run time by the same amount.

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Re: Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100

Post by stealth » Sat Nov 04, 2017 11:43 am

This thread blew up because everyone is right in their own way:

Th “real world” guys know rpm wins...but why? Because of100+ different variables. Increased kinetic energy stored as rpm in the flywheel etc on launch and gear change, more power pulses etc. ( typically meaning more hp...but not saying it)

The science/math guys are stuck on the numbers and equations. The equations to be correct demand that the same hp MUST produce the same hp,Watts, et, mph, etc. Its all the SAME. Measurements of work or application of energy. If locked into a set number it physically has to be the same or the equations are wrong....not consistent to each other ...one measurement in hp must translate to another way of measuring same power. (Track et also a measurement)

Just like one inch MUST equal 25.4mm. No matter what...
Last edited by stealth on Sat Nov 04, 2017 11:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.

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Re: Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100

Post by stealth » Sat Nov 04, 2017 11:44 am

Oops..
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.

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Re: Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100

Post by Frankshaft » Sat Nov 04, 2017 11:52 am

stealth wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2017 11:43 am
This thread blew up because everyone is right in their own way:

Th “real world” guys know rpm wins...but why? Because of100+ different variables. Increased kinetic energy stored as rpm in the flywheel etc on launch and gear change, more power pulses etc. ( typically meaning more hp...but not saying it)

The science/math guys are stuck on the numbers and equations. The equations to be correct demand that the same hp MUST produce the same hp,Watts, et, mph, etc. Its all the SAME. Measurements of work or application of energy. If locked into a set number it physically has to be the same or the equations are wrong....not consistent to each other ...one measurement in hp must translate to another way of measuring same power. (Track et also a measurement)

Just like one inch MUST equal 25.4mm. No matter what...
Very well put. I had something sorta similar started, but deleted it. It was something to the effect, formulas, simulators, etc are great tools to get you pointed down the right road in the right direction with a nice little bump start. But the "real world" factors come into play, whatever one of the 1000 variables are, and adjustments are needed for best results.

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Re: Which Is Faster - 600hp@6200 or 600hp@7100

Post by Frankshaft » Sat Nov 04, 2017 12:13 pm

Stealth, I just noticed that the statement that is at the bottom of your posts, fits this really well. lol

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